Your Day

The Batlord · 03-29-2019, 11:59 AM

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Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Is there any complex system that functions without hierarchy? Seems necessary to create effeciency at levels that justify having a system in the first place. Not necessarily a hierarchy of class/income/etc but certainly decesion making and job duties. As someone starting out in a career we are a small team and im kind of the supporting role/jack of all trades team member and sometimes it absolutely sucks how much i have to learn and keep track of.

Id be interested to read some legit analysis of the topic if you have any.

I'd agree to an extent, but our current, ancestral concept of hierarchy that we're using in supposedly liberal, democratic societies is passed down from monarchies and authoritarian societies that should be antithetical to modern sensibilities. We're supposed to treat our politicians as simply fellow citizens who have simply been given extra responsibility while the first lesson we ever learn is to do what our parents say without question because they know what's best for us. Then we go to school and learn the same thing for our teachers. Then we get shunted into the workplace where the boss doesn't know what's best for us but they don't have to cause they can just fire you and so you have to do everything they say anyway.

Our whole lives we're conditioned to roll over and accept authority and yet we're supposed to ignore that when it comes to politicians and the government. I don't know how you solve that but we're missing a mental paradigm shift somewhere in there.

Lucem Ferre · 03-29-2019, 12:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Anteater

Nuh uhhh.

You think our society is completely natural.

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Hence my original comparison. So many supposedly educated people on the Left and Right who identified as Christians believed that heavy metal had no redeeming qualities and was going to singlehandedly destroy society, incite violence with the youth, etc. I see parallels with that to where we are today as a society, especially with meme culture.

You heard it here folks. Ant thinks white supremacy doesn't incite violence and has plenty of redeemable qualities.

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It wasn't disrespectful. I was pointing out ultimately that you can't be "Not All Muslims" or "Not All Christians" and then tell me the answer to preventing a future Mosque shooting is to deplatform anyone online who is right of center. That's been the media's answer to the "problem of white supremacy" and it's a hypocritical approach at best.

No, don't try to revise your point. Your last little paragraph said it all.

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There was nothing stupid about it if you understood why I made the comparison in the first place.

I think I understand it better than you.

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Lolwut. You said I should be exiled from the U.S. completely out of nowhere because you were butthurt about that previous discussion on a completely separate thread. If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't have started this here.

No, I said that deep down in elph's lady friend's soul she wants you exiled. I said that you should get out of my country half because of you defending white supremacy with your "It's not so bad!" comments and the other half because I think telling an american born white person to get out of my country is funny. Especially when YOU got 10X more upset by it than I ever anticipated. It's hilarious. Seriously though, you might enjoy Canada.

Anteater · 03-29-2019, 12:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

Thing is that nobody was discussing hierarchy's in general like he's trying to paint it. The whole discussion was on racially motivated hierarchy's and his argument was that it's impossible to avoid so we should just deal with it.

And I never actually addressed anything he said that was satire like he's trying to say, I addressed the fact that he said white supremacy isn't a problem because racial hierarchies exist else where. He can pretend saying that China or Hispanic majorities would be worse was meant to be a joke but he actually defended it when Bat called him out for supporting white supremacy with that comment.

It is impossible to do anything about it currently, which is why I started citing statistics and studies about how demographics were ultimately going to end up by 2046 or so. In a sense, that itself is the solution.

My comments about China and Hispanic majorities was entirely a joke, based on the fact that I enjoy a lot of sci-fi and alternative history that dive deep into these kinds of ideas. For example, I read a great alternative history novel around two years ago about the Aztecs winning against Cortez. The book was by a gay African-American sci-fi author with a background in engineering, and it was fascinating to see how he mapped out society from that point in history forward, since he ended up exploring how the modern world ultimately turned out because of that one key event.

Anyone who reads enough or spends enough time looking at any of this stuff can conclude that racial hierarchies as a whole inevitably result in some kind of marginalization. The question is, what do you do to create a world where race becomes entirely meaningless to the vast majority of people?

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Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

No, I said that deep down in elph's lady friend's soul she wants you exiled. I said that you should get out of my country half because of you defending white supremacy with your "It's not so bad!" comments and the other half because I think telling an american born white person to get out of my country is funny. Especially when YOU got 10X more upset by it than I ever anticipated. It's hilarious. Seriously though, you might enjoy Canada.

I think you missed the part where I was laughing at your ad hominem attacks. The rest of your post doesn't make any sense at all.

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Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

I'd agree to an extent, but our current, ancestral concept of hierarchy that we're using in supposedly liberal, democratic societies is passed down from monarchies and authoritarian societies that should be antithetical to modern sensibilities. We're supposed to treat our politicians as simply fellow citizens who have simply been given extra responsibility while the first lesson we ever learn is to do what our parents say without question because they know what's best for us. Then we go to school and learn the same thing for our teachers. Then we get shunted into the workplace where the boss doesn't know what's best for us but they don't have to cause they can just fire you and so you have to do everything they say anyway.

Our whole lives we're conditioned to roll over and accept authority and yet we're supposed to ignore that when it comes to politicians and the government. I don't know how you solve that but we're missing a mental paradigm shift somewhere in there.

People accept authority (or are at least willing to compromise with it) because we deal with all kinds of scarcity, subconscious fears and other things...and don't believe that we can deal with the repercussions of a completely free and open world. There are a lot of people who don't want to wake up in a world where they don't have the conveniences of modern life readily available. They'd rather compromise and deal with the inherent screwed up aspects of society than deal with the alternative.

DwnWthVwls · 03-29-2019, 12:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

I'd agree to an extent, but our current, ancestral concept of hierarchy that we're using in supposedly liberal, democratic societies is passed down from monarchies and authoritarian societies that should be antithetical to modern sensibilities. We're supposed to treat our politicians as simply fellow citizens who have simply been given extra responsibility while the first lesson we ever learn is to do what our parents say without question because they know what's best for us. Then we go to school and learn the same thing for our teachers. Then we get shunted into the workplace where the boss doesn't know what's best for us but they don't have to cause they can just fire you and so you have to do everything they say anyway.

Our whole lives we're conditioned to roll over and accept authority and yet we're supposed to ignore that when it comes to politicians and the government. I don't know how you solve that but we're missing a mental paradigm shift somewhere in there.

I think i agree without giving it much thought. I think elph and possibly OH are against even the kind of hierarchy i presented and i wasnt sure if Lucem was as well. Im not interested in this lucem/ant discussion just the hierarchy part.

WWWP · 03-29-2019, 12:23 PM

I thought we were talking about me.

Psy-Fi · 03-29-2019, 12:27 PM

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Originally Posted by WWWP

I thought we were talking about me.

You and elph were plowed under and buried in the derailment.

DwnWthVwls · 03-29-2019, 12:28 PM

Hierarchy not matriarchy! Duh

Lucem Ferre · 03-29-2019, 12:29 PM

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Originally Posted by Anteater

It is impossible to do anything about it currently, which is why I started citing statistics and studies about how demographics were ultimately going to end up by 2046 or so. In a sense, that itself is the solution.

No it's actually not. Making racism taboo and teaching people it's wrong is what's brought us so for from where we were. Don't pretend like you weren't defending white supremacy.

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My comments about China and Hispanic majorities was entirely a joke, based on the fact that I enjoy a lot of sci-fi and alternative history that dive deep into these kinds of ideas. For example, I read a great alternative history novel around two years ago about the Aztecs winning against Cortez. The book was by a gay African-American sci-fi author with a background in engineering, and it was fascinating to see how he mapped out society from that point in history forward, since he ended up exploring how the modern world ultimately turned out because of that one key event.

If it was just a joke then why did you defend it when Batlord called you out for defending white supremacy? You're being extremely phony here, quit trying to revise it.

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Anyone who reads enough or spends enough time looking at any of this stuff can conclude that racial hierarchies as a whole inevitably result in some kind of marginalization. The question is, what do you do to create a world where race becomes entirely meaningless to the vast majority of people?

A racial hierarchy by definition will have marginalization. Did you mean to say racial majorities? If so that is a stupid defense because there are tons of things that hadn't been done until we did it.

It's impossible to create a world where race is completely meaningless. It is possible to create societies where race has a minimum impact on your life. A step to that is getting rid racial biases that exist in our system. Like, if you moved to Canada and took your defense of white supremacy with you it'd be a small step in helping us move forward.

Anteater · 03-29-2019, 12:47 PM

Lol you are so mad for no reason. Apparently a logical analysis of this issue in 2019 is "defending white supremacy" because you don't like the fact that I told you it was impossible to solve right now. How does that work? Like I told you in that other thread, why don't you go to China and go whine about something that can only be solved through a gradual demographic shift to something a little more balanced?

White nationalism and supremacy are only as much of an issue as you actually decide to do anything about (which in your case seems to be zilch), and unless you can come up with something practical to eliminate said biases of society before the mid 2040's I think you should give it some actual thought. Any legislation that actually contributes to fixing these issues should be practical (or at least more nuanced than affirmative action and similar prerogatives). What can you bring to the table that's more practical than what the media propose?

Your ad hominem attacks are kinda funny though, I'll give you that.

The Batlord · 03-29-2019, 12:48 PM

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Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I think i agree without giving it much thought. I think elph and possibly OH are against even the kind of hierarchy i presented and i wasnt sure if Lucem was as well. Im not interested in this lucem/ant discussion just the hierarchy part.

I don't think the answer to hierarchy can be given by modern society as we're still eating from the poisoned fruit. Enforced hierarchy (legally or otherwise) will always encourage submissiveness, which encourages a stratified society, and people comprehensively raised in such a society from birth are going to believe that handing over their autonomy to a third party is to some extent not only justified but right and proper. My autonomy should be something I give away like a miser clutching a crumpled dollar bill and only when necessary. At the moment it's just "the way of things".