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Old 09-27-2015, 03:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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My comment about the album cover was directed to the Megadeth album, fyi.
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Old 09-27-2015, 05:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wpnfire View Post
My comment about the album cover was directed to the Megadeth album, fyi.
Yeah it's not good. I'm pretty sure that the old guy is supposed to be hanging himself BTW. He's suspended in midair like he's dangling from a noose, but I imagine the record company probably didn't want an album being targeted at the mainstream to have a depiction of suicide on its cover.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 09-27-2015, 08:28 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Yeah it's not good. I'm pretty sure that the old guy is supposed to be hanging himself BTW. He's suspended in midair like he's dangling from a noose, but I imagine the record company probably didn't want an album being targeted at the mainstream to have a depiction of suicide on its cover.
I thought he was being possessed. Isn't there a scene in the exorcist where the possessed girl freakishly levitates off the bed or something? That's what I thought of when I saw the cover. Go figure.
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Old 09-27-2015, 03:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Megadeth - United Abominations (2007)




In keeping with the theme of dragging out albums I hate from bands I love, I'm giving United Abominations yet another shot.

I dug this when it came out, but I was just a tad too far past my thrash obsession be all "OMG MEGADETH DO MOAR THRASH!!!", so the only thing really affecting my objectivity was the constant hope that Megadeth, ****ing Megadeth, would make a comeback worthy of the name. Previous album The System Has Failed was surprisingly good, but with a back end that was nothing special, making me cautiously optimistic that Dave's quality control was still intact, even if the band was clearly permanently past its prime.

As time trudged on unfortunately, and I wore out the first half of United Abominations (I was never sold on it enough to bother playing it back-to-front that often), my appreciation for it dropped steadily: the laughable political lyrics were always awful and annoying, even for someone who doesn't tend to pay attention to them; there were some quality tunes, but not a one that could compete with the best from almost any previous 'Deth album, which all had at least ONE song that just knocked it out of the park; but what really began to turn me off the most about the album was just how stale and lacking in energy it was, making it obvious that Dave really didn't give much of a **** about making anything approaching thrash, but, after failing to maintain any mainstream longevity, felt obligated to cater to a new fanbase of dumb kids who wished it was the eighties.

I don't care if Dave doesn't want to do thrash anymore, and I'm no longer emotionally invested enough in the band to feel offended that I'm basically being condescended to. I can't even fault the guy for his pragmatism, as I doubt he has much in his bank account these days, so more power to him if he can trick some idiots out of their money. It's the seeming lack of giving any kind of **** about even making music in the first place that destroys this album for me. United Abominations simply has no heart or soul.

But let's see if my opinion has changed...




1. Sleepwalker: Coming out of the gate with one of the few actual thrash tunes on the album, Megadeth make a decent stab at old glories, but this would be a second-rate song on any of their better albums. The riffs aren't really all that memorable, and Mustaine's vocal performance is merely adequate. This just feels like thrash-by-the-numbers that doesn't even have the power of the more aggressive material on Countdown to Extinction or Youthanasia.

Not a bad song, but far from inspirational.

2. Washington Is Next!: And here we have the first of many political diatribes from Mustaine that comes across more as an excuse for him to bitch than to write an actual song. I dig it more than the last one though, as it has a bit of the speed metal energy of Rust in Peace. Certainly not bad, but I'm sure I'll forget what it sounds like once it's over.

The lyrics are also just confusing. He seems to weld apocalyptic, religious ranting onto political views that switch from social liberalism to right wing conservatism. I just get the feeling that even Dave doesn't quite know what he's on about.

3. Never Walk Alone... A Call to Arms: I actually forgot this song existed. It seems somewhere between the pop metal of the nineties and the quasi-thrash of half of Countdown to Extinction. It wouldn't feel out of place on that album, but it would also be one of the weakest tracks. It's pretty par-for-the-course here, though.

Dave seems to have a knack for writing tunes that sound good while you're listening to them, but fall right out of your head soon after. I have yet to actually dislike anything on this album, but nothing has grabbed me either.

4. United Abominations: This was one of the only songs on this disc that raised the bar back in the day, but it's also the most lyrically irritating. The main riff is just sick, but the minute-long, spoken word intro railing against the UN is just tedious. The rest of the song suffers from being a backing track to Dave's ranting against the government, while at the same time he condemns everyone who doesn't support it. What the **** are you even talking about, you nut?

Without all of that self-indulgent nonsense this would be a pretty top-notch outtake from Countdown. As it is, it's impressing me considerably less than it did eight years ago.

Oh my ****ing god, stop with the spoken word ranting! It's boring, you ass!

5. Gears of War: Mid-paced chuggery that is, again, a lost track from Countdown. Boring vocals are somewhat saved by a moderately killer riff, but anytime that riff isn't present this is kinda ****. I can dig this, but I won't be putting it on any Megadeth playlists (assuming I made playlists).

6. Blessed Are the Dead: God damn it. Its been three songs since Dave went on a religious spiel, but now he shoves it down our throats like a televangelist without any of the charisma.

Pretty much all the things I said about the previous tracks being cut-rate Countdown to Extinction apply here, but the riffs have a bit more energy and the chorus is easily the best yet, so this is as much a step-up as we're going to get. Probably the closest this album has come to a memorable song.

7. Play for Blood: And now the relative quality of the album drops off even further. This song is interchangeable with pretty much anything that has come before, but at this point album fatigue is making all the samey tracks run together. This might actually be just as good as the previous songs, but my lack of interest leaves me unable to care.

8. A Tout Le Monde (Set Me Free): And here we have the pointless remake of "A Tout Le Monde" from Youthanasia. It's inferior to the original, making the inclusion of Christina Scabbia from Lacuna Coil the only reason to justify its existence. But she only appears briefly to backup Dave during the second verse and chorus and sing the short third verse, with a performance clearly aimed at not upstaging her temporary employer, so she doesn't even really add anything. The woman can certainly sing, but she's never allowed to shine in any way.

Next!

9. Amerikhastan: Not as hilariously **** a title as United Abominations, but this is still a truly cringe-worthy title, and it's schizophrenic anti-conservativism/anti-liberalism just make this song a lyrical cluster****.

It's also the most boring song on the album yet (at least the previous has some kind of historical value to make it memorable).

God damn it, Dave. This spoken word **** you insist upon is making a boring song downright intolerable. **** the things that exist in your heroin-damaged brain. They don't make any more sense out loud either.

10. You're Dead: It's almost like the title of this song was created for a "Most Generic Metal Song Title Ever" contest. It's complete lack of memorability is only matched by the stale music. Thankfully it's also the shortest song on the album.

11. Burnt Ice: Frozen water that has somehow been damaged by fire without melting. That's some poetry, Davey Dave. Almost thirty seconds in and I already can't remember what this song sounds like. This album just keeps progressively plummeting ever faster off of the "Who gives a ****?" cliff. What were critics smoking when they praised this wombat turd?

12. Out on the Tiles: God damn it, why did I download the Japanese version of this album? This would be over, but now I have to sit through a bonus track. Alright, **** this. This sucks just as much as the rest of the songs on the second half of United Abominations, and I see no reason to subject myself to more of this when it's not even on the actual album.


Yeah, my opinion hasn't changed much, except the songs I actually liked I now care about just as little as the rest. "Blessed Are the Dead" can live, but everything else can **** right off. Go back to pop metal, Dave, cause you can't write thrash for **** anymore. Risk is infinitely more entertaining than this... this.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 09-27-2015, 05:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Slayer - God Hates Us All (2001)




Never really hated this album, but I've long since discarded it; if I'm on a Slayer binge then I really don't feel the need to go past Seasons in the Abyss. It was new when I started listening to the band, and I played it out a bit back then, but even then I only liked maybe half of the songs, and the rest just kind of bled together into a non-descript chugfest. Clearly the band were going after the nu metal, Slipknot contingent with this album, but at least they never toned down their assault in a misguided attempt at radio play. Unfortunately, though the music was never anything less than brutal, the Slayer gimmick had devolved into self-parody that tried way too hard to be controversial (God Hates Us All might be a cool album title, but god damn is it goofy.)

I'm not anticipating that I'll hate this, but I'm also not expecting to be wowed...




1. Darkness of Christ: I'm honestly a bit bitter at this track. The one time I saw Slayer in concert I was hoping they'd open with "Hell Awaits" and the backwards-chanting zombie intro, but got this instead. I suppose it's a more "relevant" intro in the modern sense, but still doesn't have quite the same charm. Still a damn good way to start off the album, and those riffs are just kickass.

2. Disciple: The first in the trio of opening songs that I remember being my favorite part of this album, and definitely the best of them. Pretty much every song is some variation of the mid-paced chugging showcased here, but "Disciple" simply rips. Definitely one of the best post-2000 Slayer songs by a Satanic mile.

It's certainly a bit Slipknotty, but pulls off that sound far better than that band could ever hope to. This is some sick ****, even if it doesn't have quite the same personality of Slayer's best material.

3. God Send Death: That slow-building intro, followed by a comparatively blistering riff assault, is another highlight. The song alternates between slow and menacing, and fast and brutal, keeping things from getting monotonous. It might not be thrash in the traditional sense, but it's infinitely closer than anything any of the other Big Four had released since the eighties.

It's more memorable than much of the material on the album, but I still wouldn't compare it to an "Angel of Death" or "Seasons in the Abyss". Totally solid though.

4. New Faith: The thrashy, post-thrash chugging continues with another album highlight, but it's also got a slightly cringe-worthy line with "I keep the Bible in a pool of blood so that none of it's lies can affect me!" that tries too hard to be offensive, but succeeds only in making Slayer sound desperate. Aside from that though, bitchin'.

5. Cast Down: I vaguely remember this being another good song, but by this point the chugging starts to become interchangeable, so otherwise good songs start to blur together into unmemorability. Luckily most songs don't go past the four-minute mark, so even if all the songs sound alike at least they don't outstay their welcome.

There's a tasty, sludged out section in the middle that's definitely more than a bit badass, giving a nice bit of variety to break up the brutal-yet-samey riffs of the rest of the album. Even if this isn't the best Slayer album, it's still far superior (so far) to 95% of other metal albums.

6. Threshold: This is by far the most nu metally track yet, with a quasi-hip hop vocal delivery and matching start/stop guitar rhythm. It's just a tad crap, but much of the rest of the song is more brutal chugging that fails to stick in your mind but serves its purpose for the song's two-minute run time.

Nothing bad on the album yet, or even truly mediocre, but I probably won't remember what most of the songs sound like after they're over.

7. Exile: It's a shame that Tom Araya's vocals have deteriorated to the point that he can't do much more than scream, but they still suit the music, so it's not much of a problem. They still contribute to the interchangeable nature of the music though.

This is yet another now-generic chugger, but retains the relative quality of the rest of the album, so while I'm not totally engaged, I'm not bored either. The album's only half-over though, so I don't see that lasting.

8. Seven Faces: After so long it's past time for some variety, but at least we finally get a bit with this track. Slower and sludgier than the preceding songs, with a sinister vibe, this song still isn't the most memorable, but it's a nice change of pace anyway.

9. Bloodline: Slayer has generally "evolved" from Satanic lyrics to simply anti-religious ones, and at first glance this seems a return to form (it's about a vampire). But this was actually written for the Dracula 2000 soundtrack, so it's not really old Slayer. Just cash-hungry Slayer.

Luckily it's one of the more memorable songs on God Hates Us All. It's as chuggy as the rest of the album, but it's also got a bit of catchy accessibility that makes me remember why it was one of my favs back in the day.

10. Deliverance: Another sludgy song that still chugs along with more riffs that could have been switched out with any from the rest of the album without anyone noticing. As such, it's no worse and no better, which at this point is getting kind of boring. If it hadn't been so long since I'd heard God Hates Us All I'd probably be getting album fatigue right now.

11. Warzone: Chug, chug, chug. I seem to remember liking this song a bit more than the rest of the album, and I guess the slight rise in tempo was the reason. It's post-thrash, but borders on actual thrash. However it's still not all that memorable.

12. Scarstruck: That is one dumb name. Apparently it's a bonus track that is for some reason not at the end of the album. Don't know why they felt the need to move it up the tracklist, as it's no different than anything before it, but it doesn't really matter as God Hates Us All doesn't actually have much in the way of an album flow anyway.

13. Here Comes the Pain: This song was actually recorded two years prior for a wrestling compilation (*snort*). I guess it's a tad more well-known because of it, but certainly not for being any better than anything else on the album. I could probably hit skip and miss nothing. I think I'll do that, actually.

*skip*

14. Payback: Definitely waiting for the album to be over now. Nothing I've hated, or even really disliked, but God Hates Us All just has nothing to recommend aside from its reliable intensity. As a soundtrack to a curb stomping, it's perfect, but as a unified listening experience you could just play the first few tracks and then go listen to better Slayer.

15. Addict: Last song and the second bonus track. Nothing different about this either (shocking).


Another album that hasn't really changed my opinion with time. Absence clearly does not always make the heart grow fonder. This is by no means terrible, it's just one of Slayer's weakest albums, though possibly their most brutal. This is a clear case of a once great band running on fumes and coasting along on the inertia of their core sound. I doubt I'll be going back to this anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 09-27-2015, 06:56 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I think partly because I've listened to it a bit more and it's grown on me, and partly because it's flaws now seem to pale in comparison to The Black Album, Countdown to Extinction has shot up in my esteem. I'd now elevate it from decent, to pretty darn good. So, one and a half thumbs up.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 09-27-2015, 09:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Megadeth - Risk (1999)




I kind of just want to listen to and talk about Megadeth at the moment. I've listened to their first four albums enough times that I don't really have to rediscover them, and what's the point of agreeing with everyone on just how awesome a bunch of acknowledged classics are? So, let's go with Risk, an album that I feel gets a kinda sorta undeserved amount of hate. It's got some dumb songs, some crap songs, and is only a "risk" in that it's a thrash band who broke with thrash almost a decade ago finally dropping what little of that genre remained from their sound. I hear people say it's experimental, but how experimental really is a pop metal/rock album?

But the first half is fun as hell, "Insomnia" kicks more ass than any song they'd written in years, and it's always nice to see a bunch of mindless thrash purists sulking just cause a band isn't self-plagiarizing material from a musical eternity ago.

So...




1. Insomnia: Love the weird, Eastern guitar lines that kick this song off, and then it just explodes into some kind of mutant pop metal that might actually qualify as experimental. Lots of weird things going on, often almost buried under the dense, slick production which makes for a song that sounds unlike anything the band had done previously, and which should have been Mustaine's answer to the shallow arena metal of Metallica's '90s music.

It also kicks more ass than a fair amount of Megadeth's thrash material. It's not mosh metal, but it's got so much energy and oddball brutality that it still demands your head to bang. Definitely one of the best songs in the band's back catalog.

2. Prince of Darkness: In the great tradition of Megadeth songs with silly, cheesy lyrics, we have this ridiculous song about Satan... I think. Can never tell if Mustaine is being serious or if he's just really good at making metaphors look like dumb, literal nonsense.

Regardless, this isn't as amazing as the above song, but it's still a lot of fun. Kind of a "Symphony of Destruction"-style, mid-paced chugger, with a bitchin' main riff, but with a "spooky" atmosphere that I hope is tongue-in-cheek (can never tell with Mustaine). I loved this song as a teenager, disavowed it for years afterward, but now find myself loving anew its trashy cheese.

3./4. Enter the Arena/Crush 'Em: This was seriously Dave Mustaine's attempt at making a song that would get play in sports arenas. The man is nothing if not shameless, but at least he's hilarious about it, rather than suing the internet for sharing his music for free (). This song is the dumbest thing Dave ever wrote (maybe) and is another one that I loved as a teenager, loathed after I turned away from "false metal", and now find, to my delight, is such irredeemable garbage that I can only love it to bits.

The omnipresently slick and dense production of this album, along with the idiotic lyrics about... beating someone up I think, make this song too silly to really be credible to anyone over the age of 15, but if you can unhook your brain, the mindlessly simple, anthemic, disposable, quiet verse/loud chorus, arena metal stupidity of "Crush 'Em" is so awful it's brilliant.

I probably listened to this song roughly as many times as "Enter Sandman" in high school, and yet I still like this a hell of a lot more, so clearly there's something more going on here (like that sub-NIN electronic beat throbbing under the instrumentation, like a vein on Frownland's forehead as he listens to this) than that shit-turd. I think that might be the difference between the two bands at the time: one was perhaps more accomplished, but the other had a dubious, fun personality that made them a far less sterile listen.

5. Breadline: This doesn't even half qualify as metal. This is just unrepentant pop rock that I'm sure sent Megadeth's old fans into fits of frothing, denim-fueled rage, and it's catchier than a baseball with herpes.

Anyone with a love for AOR would probably *** in their pants at this kind of song that's really just an excuse for the infectious chorus.

6. The Doctor Is Calling: And here we have the first misstep. I think Dave was seriously going for unsettling with the atmosphere of this song, but just like everything else on this album, what you get is goofiness. Unfortunately, since the attempt is so obviously at odds with the result, the song is dragged down.

If you can ignore that though, you have a song that's not as good as the previous four, and more than a little disposable, but still entertaining enough to justify its existence. And that failed atmosphere actually makes this song far more memorable than it would be if it were on any other Megadeth album. The production is a double-edged sword I guess, but if you don't take the music too seriously it adds more than it takes away.

7. I'll Be There: Dave definitely front-loaded the album with the heavier tracks, as most of what's left barely even touches at metal, if it does at all. This starts with a bit of honest-to-god harsh noise, before going full pop rock. An odd way to introduce a song like this, but I guess that might be a little of the experimentation Dave was going for.

It's been a while since I got this far on this album, so I wasn't aware that this is apparently a bit of a lost gem. Power pop gold is what this is. Alright, maybe silver, but it's still pretty darn good.

I also never noticed just how dense the production was on this album, but with headphones, it's either overbearing in an annoying way, or immersive in a wonderfully oddball way. Thankfully, since I'm a cheeseball, I go with the latter. Gone is the metallic crunch of the previous two albums (Youthanasia and Cryptic Writings), to be replaced by an indefinable, thick layer of something or other that really brings songs to life that maybe wouldn't be quite as good otherwise.

8. Wanderlust: There's that massive, slick production again, making an otherwise thin guitar line into a melodic wall that is somehow just a tad sinister. Which then drops down into a delicious pop rock chorus that sounds somehow wide open, whereas the song had previously been more than a little claustrophobic.

In a live setting, this song would probably fall flat, but as an overproduced bit of studio trickery, it's actually kind of great. Terribly good at the very least. And nothing less than memorable in a way that much of the band's other '90s work failed to be.

9. Ecstasy: Some pop rock that borders on soft rock here. Dave's quiet vocal is mixed louder than usual over the music, so it feels like he's speaking directly into your ear, which makes what might otherwise feel limp into a strangely intimate experience, and of course there's a great chorus in there, made quietly massive by an engulfing wall of production.

I never thought much of this album being experimental, but the studio work that went into this must have been a massive departure for Dave, who'd previously approached his pop metal with the same production mentality as if he was making a metal record. I'm not comparing this to the Flaming Lips, but Risk uses that same idea of immersing you in the production, and it's working far better than I ever remember it. Let me give this a few spins and there's a chance I might be calling this the best Megadeth album not released between 1985 and 1992.

10. Seven: The closest to a metal track since "The Doctor Is Calling", but this is still basically power pop. Not nearly as production heavy as the last few tracks, this song is allowed to breath, capturing an infectious energy that drives it forward in a similar way to "Skin O' My Teeth" or "High Speed Dirt" from Countdown to Extinction, albeit in a more melodic fashion. Nice.

11. Time: The Beginning: A double suite of songs about time or some ****. I'm kind of worried that this album is about to jump the shark, which would totally bum me out. I'm hoping that it going out with a bang rather than a misfire, as that would put a sour note on a listening experience that I really wasn't expecting to enjoy as much as I currently am.

Okay, super melodic guitar, with vocals that might just be a bit overwrought (Dave really can't sing, and how he gets away with it so often is beyond me). This is just kind of dull right now. Two out of three minutes over and it's pretty much gone nowhere. Definitely a misfire, but maybe the second song will save whatever idea the band was going for...

12. Time: The End: Hey, a riff that might turn out to be kind of badass.

I see Cronos?

WTF?

Alright, nevermind, this song seems to be going all over the place. First a harder riff, then some kind of pseudo-epic thing, and then it devolves into a dissonant cacophony that's more head-scratching than interesting. And then it just kind of trails off into something or other.

Yup, these last two songs totally jumped the shark. The first could have been about two minutes shorter (i.e. been a short intro to the second), and the second could have been given longer than two-and-a-half minutes to go... somewhere that made sense. I'm not sure I want to give Dave more time with it, but it's not doing much more than sit at the end of the album like a turd right now, so nothing to lose, right?

Oh god, what if he was going for a prog epic but the record company stormed the studio and forcefully removed him? What if they left him be? That would be awful. Alright, I'm happy with three minutes of boredom and two-and-a-half of pointless weirdness.


Well, aside from those last two, and "The Doctor Is Calling" to an extent, I kind of loved all of that. ****in' A, I never thought I'd say that about Risk. I mean, it's not like I haven't given this record enough chances and been underwhelmed each time. I guess this is just a headphones album or something. Or at least half the album needs headphones to appreciate ("Crush 'Em" requires only a small portion of one's brain).

I've seen Mustaine comment that if this album hadn't been sold under the Megadeth name then it would have actually sold, and I now think he might have been right. There are plenty of songs on Risk that could have dominated the radio, from "Insomnia", to "Breadline", to "Crush 'Em", to "Ecstasy", to etc, this album is chock full of potential radio fodder and it's a ****ing shame that it wasn't given the chance. The poor douchebag just can't catch a break, can he?

I think this might actually be the pop metal quasi-masterpiece that we all thought Dave might have been capable of but never quite achieved. The songs might not all be quite brilliant, and some of the lyrics are truly cringe-worthy, but the production really elevates this album to a level I don't think anybody would really expect, given the massive bias against it. And this is easily the most diverse set of songs ol' Davey Dave ever put out, which makes this a highly interesting listen to boot (assuming cheesy, overproduced pop rock/metal interests you).

So, put all preconceived notions aside, listen to Risk, and you just might find one of your new favorite Megadeth albums. Either that or I'll be the lone voice defending it... anywhere.










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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:43 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Nah, this one...


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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 10-03-2015, 12:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Nah, this one...


That one is a lot more modern, on the one I put it had also the trash compactor as well and this is the other side of that Death Star.

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If you can't deal with the fact that there are 6+ billion people in the world and none of them think exactly the same that's not my problem. Just deal with it yourself or make actual conversation. This isn't a court and I'm not some poet or prophet that needs everything I say to be analytically critiqued.
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Pounding Decibels- A Hard and Heavy History
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Old 10-03-2015, 12:29 PM   #10 (permalink)
Zum Henker Defätist!!
 
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That's some mighty fine cheap cardboard.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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