Frank Zappa Appreciation Thread

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Frownland

Closemindedness is a pretty rude accusation off of the bat.

There goes that crap reading comprehension again. How is anyone supposed to be persuaded by your hermeneutic abilities (for issues like this) when you continually show such rudimentary reading comprehension problems? I'm guessing you're probably an Aspie?

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

There goes that crap reading comprehension again.

Nah my post was probably just too esoteric this time.

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

How is anyone supposed to be persuaded by your hermeneutic abilities (for issues like this) when you continually show such rudimentary reading comprehension problems? I'm guessing you're probably an Aspie?

I wouldn't trust a retard like me so you definitely shouldn't.

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Frownland

I wouldn't trust a retard like me so you definitely shouldn't.

Gee, and here I was ready to invest in your business.

[Lisnaholic]

Well, this thread certainly spun off in an unexpected diriection, and since p36 it makes for some interesting reading. If I may add a couple of comments:

I got lost in some of the pages of rarified semantics and debating points, but I agree with Guybrush's assessment of FZ; the man, the conduct, the lyrics put together suggest a genuinely-held mysoginistic attitude imo.

I would dispute both sentences in this post, Terrapin:-

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

Seeing "slut" as necessarily negatively judgmental is part of the problem. That's not actually how meaning works in general (that any word has any necessary connotation).

i) "Slut" is negatively judgemental, at least in the UK. For that reason, "You're a slut!" is used as strong insult, intended to shock and hurt. Like other insults, it is also sometimes used with a kind of jokey application between friends, the way you might tell a buddy to "F off" without meaning it offensively. That special use, imo, doesn't alter the fact that the word "slut" can be read as negatively judgemental, unless there is context that makes clear otherwise.

ii) Surely this is exactly how meaning works? When we want to, we choose words that convey our judgement:
"That painting is colourful." = no judgement
"That painting is garish." = negative judgement
"He's a stallion" = approval
"He's a creep" = disapproval
Aren't those all examples of "necessary connotation"?

[The Batlord]

I don't know what you people are on about. Terrapin Station is just advocating for integrity in video game journalism.

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

Well, this thread certainly spun off in an unexpected diriection, and since p36 it makes for some interesting reading. If I may add a couple of comments:

I got lost in some of the pages of rarified semantics and debating points, but I agree with Guybrush's assessment of FZ; the man, the conduct, the lyrics put together suggest a genuinely-held mysoginistic attitude imo.

I would dispute both sentences in this post, Terrapin:-



i) "Slut" is negatively judgemental, at least in the UK. For that reason, "You're a slut!" is used as strong insult, intended to shock and hurt. Like other insults, it is also sometimes used with a kind of jokey application between friends, the way you might tell a buddy to "F off" without meaning it offensively. That special use, imo, doesn't alter the fact that the word "slut" can be read as negatively judgemental, unless there is context that makes clear otherwise.

ii) Surely this is exactly how meaning works? When we want to, we choose words that convey our judgement:
"That painting is colourful." = no judgement
"That painting is garish." = negative judgement
"He's a stallion" = approval
"He's a creep" = disapproval
Aren't those all examples of "necessary connotation"?

Meaning is subjective. It depends on what an individual has in mind, how the individual is thinking about the term in question. There's no necessary way to think about a term, positive, negative, or whatever.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

Meaning is subjective. It depends on what an individual has in mind, how the individual is thinking about the term in question. There's no necessary way to think about a term, positive, negative, or whatever.

Based on information from interviews, books, song lyrics, articles, cultural/historical context etc. I see little reason to assume Frank Zappa had a subjective interpretation without negative connotation for the word "slut".

I've provided several arguments and also a few sources to support this, among them the account of his secretary who seem to say that Frank Zappa and The Mothers had a double standard, one in which sleeping around was okay/encouraged for guys, but seen as a negative for girls.

If you want to argue that Frank had a more special and less negative connotation in mind, perhaps you should also present some evidence to support that.

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Guybrush

Based on information from interviews, books, song lyrics, articles, cultural/historical context etc. I see little reason to assume Frank Zappa had a subjective interpretation without negative connotation for the word "slut".

First, all meaning is subjective period. But this seems bizarre to say. Zappa didn't seem to associate a negative connotation at all to the word "slut." I don't associate a negative connotation to it, either--quite the opposite rather. Zappa didn't find it negative or problematic or anything that men and women enjoyed sex. He was very pro enjoying sex.

among them the account of his secretary who seem to say that Frank Zappa and The Mothers had a double standard, one in which sleeping around was okay/encouraged for guys, but seen as a negative for girls.

I've actually played with a handful of people who played with Zappa, by the way, and this isn't the case at all as far as I know.

Re supporting it, where in any of his lyrics is there any indication of seeing enjoying sex as something negative?

[Marie Monday]

Because a negative attitude towards enjoying sex and a negative attitude towards promiscuous women is totally the same thing

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

First, all meaning is subjective period. But this seems bizarre to say. Zappa didn't seem to associate a negative connotation at all to the word "slut." I don't associate a negative connotation to it, either--quite the opposite rather. Zappa didn't find it negative or problematic or anything that men and women enjoyed sex. He was very pro enjoying sex.

Quoting the Butcher article yet again:

But gradually she began to experience moments of clarity. When Butcher heard one of the "Mothers" – the members of Zappa's backing band, the Mothers of Invention – say he felt sorry for one groupie because she had been with three different musicians on consecutive nights, she became irritated, since the men who behaved that way were congratulated for "scoring". Or as she says, with understatement: "I began to notice the double-standard."

Butcher was upset when Zappa did not see her point of view. Something clicked in her mind when she saw feminist campaigners in the news. "I saw a banner that said: 'Love me less, respect me more.' And I just thought: 'Yes. That's it.'" Butcher read Kate Millett's Sexual Politics, which came as a revelation to her, as it did to many women at that time. Excitedly, she told Zappa what she had realised. "I thought he'd be sympathetic, but he wasn't, completely the opposite."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...nk-zappa-women

I've actually played with a handful of people who played with Zappa.

Cool! Who did you play with?

Re supporting it, where in any of his lyrics is there any indication of seeing enjoying sex as something negative?

See again use of terms like "slut" and "easy".