Frank Zappa's final American show to be released for the first time

I saw Zappa play live for the last time on that tour. March 16, at the Providence Civic Center in Providence, R.I. A very impressive and memorable show. One of the songs from that show (a cover of "Whipping Post" by The Allman Brothers Band) is included as one of the additional bonus tracks in this set. Not sure if I'll purchase a copy yet as I already have all of the previously released albums from that tour but it would be nice to have a copy to add to my collection.

I haven't listened much to Burnt Weenie Sandwich so that's on my to-do list :) Waka/Jawaka I've listened to quite a bit, but it's never quite floated up towards the top of my list.

Twenty Small Cigars from Chunga's Revenge is another laid-back jazzy song, though I haven't quite been as infatuated with it as I was with Blessed Relief.

Hey! Nice to see that you are dropping in to see us again, tore! :) I hope you and your family are all keeping well.

Yes, I also like some of the more mellow tracks; I think they work well in context, as I'm often ready for a "breather" from his more intense material. Predicatably, I like this one with some Beefheart harmonica:-



Burnt Weenie was the last physical Zappa cd I bought. It's pretty good, but perhaps it suffers from not being Hot Rats Vol II as I had hoped.

That sounds intriguing! Isn't there a compilation album waiting to be made: All FZ´s Unexpected Cover Songs ?

Have anyone around here seen the "Zappa" movie from 2020?
And if so, do you recommend it?

Still waiting for the Alex Winter doc to become available on google play. People say it's good.

I hope it shows a different side of Frank. His misanthropy and the ways it expressed itself throughout his life is a facet of him that I would've liked to see explored more.

I just don't know much about Zappa himself, so I was looking for something that would give me a quick tour, and what to research next

Any Zappa related movies or articles you'd recommend?

I recommend hearing about the man on his own terms by watching his interviews and his speech at the PMRC.

If you're really interested, I think his autobiography is quite interesting, both for what he writes and what he doesn't write. Something you don't get much of a feel for is a sense of true comraderie with his band members, seeming to prefer keeping them at arms length or sometimes treating them as employees. He doesn't seem sentimental about people. He states that he stays up at nights, smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee, and that this protects him from the tedium of having to deal with other people during daytime hours.

Obviously his lyrics throw punches left and right and you can sort of feel that there's an undercurrent of disdain for the stupids of the world underlying much of his writing. Still, there's something mostly unsaid about how he was at relationships with other human beings. I guess people don't want to tarnish his legacy or speak ill of the dead. Still, I definitely think it's an important facet of his personality as well as his work and methods.

Also, I like some of the interviews (in which he's typically candid, or "frank" if you will). Youtube has lots, like this one.

Sorry for blathering, but..

I do feel like Zappa was, at times, unfortunately sexist and homophobic. Because of his contradictious nature, he did occasionally put it into words. Broken Hearts Are For *******s is gross (don't fool yourself, girl - it's going up your poop chute). In Florentine Pogen, he refers to one of their groupies as Chester's (Chester Thompson) Gorilla, which seems mean even though I love the song. In Punky's whips, he displays some homophobia common of the time.

But of course problems with older heroes' morals is inevitable In rock n roll and Frank wasn't particularly bad. I just read Pamela Des Barres (groupie, member of the Zappa-produced GTOs) autobiography (I'm With The Band) and it's clear a lot of rockers were banging minors back in the day. The book is ripe with different flavours of paedophilia. She herself loses Jimmy Page to a 14 year old. David Bowie, Iggy Pop, Elvis Presley.. Just now there are allegations against Bob Dylan from someone who was 16 at the time. Without knowing the specifics, my recent literary glance into that world makes it seem not unlikely.

Pamela also knew Frank well and describes him as a saint. He's a family guy and doesn't do drugs. She never mentions any sexscapades, but we know they probably happened as he himself admits on camera to banging groupies and that his wife grumbles, but just has to put up with it. What can she do? It seems out of character that he wouldn't also have sex with at least some of the GTOs, although nothing of the sort is mentioned.

I think the reason we don't see or hear more of Frank's less admirable qualities is that Gail Zappa is fiercely protective of Frank's legacy and would not cooperate with anyone who would shine a light on it (documentary makers generally need cooperation from the Zappa estate) and she also has a history of suing.

I wonder if Ruth Underwood could tell some tales, not that she would.

All that aside, ofc I ****ing LOVE Zappa, but there's definitely a side to him that's under-communicated. Was he ever a good friend to anyone?

Not that Zappa's lyrics were confessional or autobiographical, but offhand I can't think of anything that I'd classify as sexist or homophobic.

Or at least if anything is being classified that way, then I must really not understand what the heck sexism or homophobia are even supposed to be.

Joe's garage is a little sexist, but I do feel he really ramps up the nasty around the time of Sheik Yerbouti. I mentioned Broken Hearts Are For *******s and Punky's Whips. What about Bobby Brown? Easy Meat?

I don't get what's sexist about those. Isn't sexism "prejudice or discrimination based on one's sex or gender . . . it has been linked to stereotypes and gender roles, and may include the belief that one sex or gender is intrinsically superior to another"?

Well, if you know those lyrics and don't see it, I'm probably not gonna ble able to persuade you.

I am in the situation now where.. while the gross lyrics have been fun for most of my life, I have a daughter now. I would love for her to get into Zappa, but don't feel like Jewish Princess, Catholic Girls, Easy Meat or "don't fool yourself girl, it's going up your poop chute" are good messages for young girls (or guys). In the world of FZ, women's worth seems to only come from the sexually pleasing things they can do to men.

And for guys to fall in love with other guys is alluded to as irreparable scars on foolish minds.

How is Zappa any more pretentious than most punk artists?

Frank Zappa had a disdain for "pretentious" plastic people and the "pretentious" club scene. He was also against the "pretentious" music industry. I don't know how you turned it around and made him the one who was "pretentious." You logic is like a laboratory rat maze and once again I failed to get the cheese.

At this point I have granddaughters even.

I don't agree that just because lyrics are focused on sex that they're somehow saying that "a female's worth only derives from sexual activities." I'm also not fond of avoiding all emphases on sex as part of being a human being when it comes to raising kids. Rather sex is a very important part of what it is to be a human being functioning in the world.

It's not the focus on sex. Rather, it's the contempt and condescension coupled with it. At worst, you could make a case for rapey, like when saying that women will be funked in the ass (which is fine) and have little say in the matter (which is not okay).

I don't mind sex at all, but Frank doesn't always communicate healthy ways to go about it. Those songs are for guys, which saddens me a little bit.

So if you call everyone else pretentious you have an ironclad alibi against being deemed pretentious yourself. Wish I had figured this one out earlier!

Extraordinarily gifted and genius while pretentious with ideas that aren't worth a **** ? That combination doesn't seem to cohere.


I don't see how you're not reading "contempt and condescension" into it though.

Re "Broken Hearts" I don't think you're even understanding that song or the lyrics at all. That whole last section simply grows in a word-play way out of "Well, ladies you can be an @$$hole too; You might pretend you ain't got one on the bottom of you, But don't fool yerself girl," where as was usually par for the course, the "ram it up your poop shoot" was probably an inside joke about something someone in the band or on the crew said. That was the source of a lot of Zappa's lyrics.

He's the wurst.

I've been an FZ apologist too, still am sometimes. And sure, there could be inside joke reasons that could make a lyric look worse than what is actually meant, but having to resort to convoluted explanations to explain away gross lyrics.. Even that in itself shows that there are some problems.

In Bobby Brown, we have lines like: "I'll let her do all the work and maybe later I'll rape her". In fembot in a Wet T-shirt, we get lines like "I really need the fifty bucks you know. I gotta get home!" - "Yeah, I know, your father is waiting for you in the tool shed". You don't see condescension or contempt here? Of course, any FZ apologist will point out that Frank uses characters here and Bobby Brown is meant to be awful (rapist homosexual sadomasichist), but that's not always the case.

Take a verse out of Jewish princess where he doesn't hide behind any character:

I need a hairy little Jewish Princess (la-la-la)
With a brand new nose, who knows where it goes (wee-ohh)
I want a steamy little Jewish Princess (shh)
With over-worked gums, who squeaks when she cums
I don't want no troll
I just want a Yemenite hole

You mean this is not derogatory, shows contempt or condescension?

Or easy meat:

Saw her tiny titties
Through her see-through blouse
I just had to take the girl to my house
Easy meat

Slightly sillier example, but upon discovering that his girlfriend has gone missing (eaten by the devil) in the song "Titties n beer", Frank's reaction is this:

"where's those titties i like so well, 'n' my goddam beer!" Is what i started to yell

Clearly the important thing about his girl - and what concerns him - are the tittays.

I don't consider myself a prude. I don't have problems with portrayals of sexuality between men and women. I just think it would be better if they were respectful. In his songs, Frank uses terms like "crew slut" or "easy meat" which are in themselves derogatory and objectifying. This would be okay too if it happened on occasion, but the impression I have is that Frank is pretty much unable to tackle the theme of man-woman sexuality without somehow being disrespectful to women. He's disrespectful to everyone, so of course, but this particular side of him especially hasn't aged well (imo).

Or Leo Tolstoy

I don't want to get into increasingly longer posts each round, but just for example, take this:
So, let's imagine that you're going to write a song about a groupie who is notorious for hooking up with crew members. To make it "respectful," instead of writing it as "Crew Slut," you'd write is as?

DBSP Designated Band Sex Person

"Groupie"?

I never bothered to seriously investigate Frank Zappa, having heard maybe an hour's worth in total of cuts from various albums, and not particularly liking any of them. This thread has made me even less inclined to spend any more time on him.

If you can't think of a way then maybe you should question your position.

I am not calling everyone "pretentious" in fact I'm doing the opposite. I am trying to divert that accusation being levied against someone who thinks independently both on a philosophical and on a creative level.

I guess your definition of "pretentious" is someone who says "Wowie Zowie." Someone who warns you: don't eat the yellow snow. How dare he. If jadis wants to eat yellow snow who is the pretentious Frank Zappa to say otherwise. Wowie Zowie that is really pretentious.

I think your stance is admirable. I was referring to something else.

You said Elph’s accusing Zappa of being “pretentious” made no sense in light of Zappa deeming X, Y and Z “pretentious”. I didn’t see any contradiction there because you can rail against pretentiousness all you want and still fit many people’s definitions of pretentiousness. Who’s to say whose definition is the more legitimate etc.

Not at all, I like WZ, a perfectly crafted little ditty. In general, I’m a fan of Dadaist language games. My personal definition of pretentiousness is probably the former singer of the smiths but then I am generally not in a brilliant position to level the accusation at anyone.

That is not what I said. I didn't say Frank just deemed them "pretentious." Zappa had a decent amount of self-awareness and often express reasonable and legitimate critism against those things mentioned. Frank Zappa didn't "deem" those things "pretentious" willy nilly and in the deeming of those thing "pretentious" thus made them so.

Then you reduce the meaning of "pretentiousness" to something not being liked. Frank Zappa doesn't like "X, Y, and Z" and ironically there are people who don't like Frank Zappa. Who's to say who is more disliked? ... err "pretentious?"

Bruh, everyone on MB is basically a goddamn nerd.

You play League of Legends.

I'd probably just give her a name or call her girl or woman and somehow, without judgment, describe her joy of having sex with members of the band. Why would I have to invoke a derogatory term at all?

If you feel like you do need a term, I think bob's suggestion "groupie" covers it in a way which is both explanatory and less derogatory.

Edit:

I hope you do check him out. Musically, he's just about the most interesting character from US rock history with a ton of great material. Around 1980, he goes in for shock value. He was a bit of a misanthrope and for a while, I do think he enjoyed notoriety and wanted to give the middle finger to the people who wanted to censor him. He grew out of it and spent his last years focusing more on classical, jazz and modern experimental music. You can easily avoid his "gross" period by avoiding the records made around 1980, though aside from some tasteless jokes, they're still clever, funny and musically great (especially Joe's Garage for me).

My favourite album is The Mothers' One Size Fits All which, to most people, should be unproblematic. He also made gorgeous stuff like this:

Because that was the idea for the song. Not every little thing in culture and art has to be respectful towards others and political correct.
It wouldn't be the same song if you would be "describing her joy off having sex with the band", because it's from the perspective of a band that wants to get laid in any town possible.

Frank Zappa has created for all of his songwriting this character of a seditious, cynical joker. That was his idea, and it doesn't seem to actually hurt anyone. He's a quite different person when interviewed – full of reserve, reason and sense. Also he is certainly the last person to actually think that a girl having sex with band members is a "slut" or anything, so why bother?

Art is something else than, let's say political speeches, etc. You're allowed to do or say anything that is in line with your artistic idea or persona.

Cut artists a break, it's not like making a song about a "crew slut" is being a nazi.

[Also, it's a damn good song musically speaking – but that's what it's like with Zappa: amazing music and dumb/disgusting/funny lyrics]

I'm not sure what you're asking there. Are you not familiar with what a groupie is?

Zappa has a song called "Crew Slut" that's about groupies (or perhaps a particular groupie that he had in mind) who were (was) known for hooking up with the crew. (Groupies often do this as an eventual "in" to the band, but some also just like crew guys.)

Seeing "slut" as necessarily negatively judgmental is part of the problem. That's not actually how meaning works in general (that any word has any necessary connotation).

Well, and I don't think "slut" is meant as something with a negative connotation. Zappa certainly doesn't think that it's something negative for a woman to like having sex with crew members (and this song is about the crew, not the band).

We're also overlooking the way that "crew slut" fits the tune musically--the rhythm of the phrase, the way the phonemes work in the musical phrase, etc. All of that stuff is very important. You'd have to write at least slightly different music if you're changing the lyrics.

Rap metal/rap rock/groove metal/funk metal/nu metal, which I lump all together, is one of my favorite subgenres (of a list of about 50 favorite genres/subgenres)

"Pretentious" is one of the dumber terms of criticism anyway.

The crux of these overly defensive points.

A Pee-wee Herman caliber response. Nice.

Pretentious and disliked aren't necessarily the same thing. I happen to think Morrissey is pretentious too and yet I love the Smiths (and even some of Morrissey's solo material). Zappa, I'm not so sure. I know he flipped out the cast of SNL when he made his one and only appearance there and he talked in parables at the PMRC hearings. The music still stands out as occasionally brilliant though.

It's the level of seriousness that the uncritical fanboy stance deserves.