Frank Zappa Appreciation Thread

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Mucha na Dziko

Any Zappa related movies or articles you'd recommend?

If you're really interested, I think his autobiography is quite interesting, both for what he writes and what he doesn't write. Something you don't get much of a feel for is a sense of true comraderie with his band members, seeming to prefer keeping them at arms length or sometimes treating them as employees. He doesn't seem sentimental about people. He states that he stays up at nights, smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee, and that this protects him from the tedium of having to deal with other people during daytime hours.

Obviously his lyrics throw punches left and right and you can sort of feel that there's an undercurrent of disdain for the stupids of the world underlying much of his writing. Still, there's something mostly unsaid about how he was at relationships with other human beings. I guess people don't want to tarnish his legacy or speak ill of the dead. Still, I definitely think it's an important facet of his personality as well as his work and methods.

Also, I like some of the interviews (in which he's typically candid, or "frank" if you will). Youtube has lots, like this one.

[Guybrush]

Sorry for blathering, but..

I do feel like Zappa was, at times, unfortunately sexist and homophobic. Because of his contradictious nature, he did occasionally put it into words. Broken Hearts Are For *******s is gross (don't fool yourself, girl - it's going up your poop chute). In Florentine Pogen, he refers to one of their groupies as Chester's (Chester Thompson) Gorilla, which seems mean even though I love the song. In Punky's whips, he displays some homophobia common of the time.

But of course problems with older heroes' morals is inevitable In rock n roll and Frank wasn't particularly bad. I just read Pamela Des Barres (groupie, member of the Zappa-produced GTOs) autobiography (I'm With The Band) and it's clear a lot of rockers were banging minors back in the day. The book is ripe with different flavours of paedophilia. She herself loses Jimmy Page to a 14 year old. David Bowie, Iggy Pop, Elvis Presley.. Just now there are allegations against Bob Dylan from someone who was 16 at the time. Without knowing the specifics, my recent literary glance into that world makes it seem not unlikely.

Pamela also knew Frank well and describes him as a saint. He's a family guy and doesn't do drugs. She never mentions any sexscapades, but we know they probably happened as he himself admits on camera to banging groupies and that his wife grumbles, but just has to put up with it. What can she do? It seems out of character that he wouldn't also have sex with at least some of the GTOs, although nothing of the sort is mentioned.

I think the reason we don't see or hear more of Frank's less admirable qualities is that Gail Zappa is fiercely protective of Frank's legacy and would not cooperate with anyone who would shine a light on it (documentary makers generally need cooperation from the Zappa estate) and she also has a history of suing.

I wonder if Ruth Underwood could tell some tales, not that she would.

All that aside, ofc I ****ing LOVE Zappa, but there's definitely a side to him that's under-communicated. Was he ever a good friend to anyone?

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Guybrush

Sorry for blathering, but..

I do feel like Zappa was, at times, unfortunately sexist and homophobic.

Not that Zappa's lyrics were confessional or autobiographical, but offhand I can't think of anything that I'd classify as sexist or homophobic.

Or at least if anything is being classified that way, then I must really not understand what the heck sexism or homophobia are even supposed to be.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

Not that Zappa's lyrics were confessional or autobiographical, but offhand I can't think of anything that I'd classify as sexist or homophobic.

Or at least if anything is being classified that way, then I must really not understand what the heck sexism or homophobia are even supposed to be.

Joe's garage is a little sexist, but I do feel he really ramps up the nasty around the time of Sheik Yerbouti. I mentioned Broken Hearts Are For *******s and Punky's Whips. What about Bobby Brown? Easy Meat?

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Guybrush

Joe's garage is a little sexist, but I do feel he rrally ramps up the nasty around the time of Sheik Yerbouti. I mentioned Broken Hearts Are For *******s and Punky's Whips. What about Bobby Brown? Easy Meat?

I don't get what's sexist about those. Isn't sexism "prejudice or discrimination based on one's sex or gender . . . it has been linked to stereotypes and gender roles, and may include the belief that one sex or gender is intrinsically superior to another"?

[Guybrush]

Well, if you know those lyrics and don't see it, I'm probably not gonna ble able to persuade you.

I am in the situation now where.. while the gross lyrics have been fun for most of my life, I have a daughter now. I would love for her to get into Zappa, but don't feel like Jewish Princess, Catholic Girls, Easy Meat or "don't fool yourself girl, it's going up your poop chute" are good messages for young girls (or guys). In the world of FZ, women's worth seems to only come from the sexually pleasing things they can do to men.

And for guys to fall in love with other guys is alluded to as irreparable scars on foolish minds.

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by elphenor

Zappa (the artist/cultural figure)is so incredibly pretentious while simultaneously being an extraordinarily gifted composer/Musician/what have you

that it's the worst, because the genius of the music tricks people into thinking the process or any of the ideas surrounding it are worth a ****

How is Zappa any more pretentious than most punk artists?

[Neapolitan]

Originally Posted by elphenor

Zappa (the artist/cultural figure)is so incredibly pretentious while simultaneously being an extraordinarily gifted composer/Musician/what have you

that it's the worst, because the genius of the music tricks people into thinking the process or any of the ideas surrounding it are worth a ****

Frank Zappa had a disdain for "pretentious" plastic people and the "pretentious" club scene. He was also against the "pretentious" music industry. I don't know how you turned it around and made him the one who was "pretentious." You logic is like a laboratory rat maze and once again I failed to get the cheese.

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Guybrush

Well, if you know those lyrics and don't see it, I'm probably not gonna ble able to persuade you.

I am in the situation now where.. while the gross lyrics have been fun for most of my life, I have a daughter now. I would love for her to get into Zappa, but don't feel like Jewish Princess, Catholic Girls, Easy Meat or "don't fool yourself girl, it's going up your poop chute" are good messages for young girls (or guys). In the world of FZ, women's worth seems to only come from the sexually pleasing things they can do to men.

And for guys to fall in love with other guys is alluded to as irreparable scars on foolish minds.

At this point I have granddaughters even.

I don't agree that just because lyrics are focused on sex that they're somehow saying that "a female's worth only derives from sexual activities." I'm also not fond of avoiding all emphases on sex as part of being a human being when it comes to raising kids. Rather sex is a very important part of what it is to be a human being functioning in the world.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

At this point I have granddaughters even.

I don't agree that just because lyrics are focused on sex that they're somehow saying that "a female's worth only derives from sexual activities."

It's not the focus on sex. Rather, it's the contempt and condescension coupled with it. At worst, you could make a case for rapey, like when saying that women will be funked in the ass (which is fine) and have little say in the matter (which is not okay).

I don't mind sex at all, but Frank doesn't always communicate healthy ways to go about it. Those songs are for guys, which saddens me a little bit.