Frank Zappa Appreciation Thread

[Lisnaholic]

Well, this thread certainly spun off in an unexpected diriection, and since p36 it makes for some interesting reading. If I may add a couple of comments:

I got lost in some of the pages of rarified semantics and debating points, but I agree with Guybrush's assessment of FZ; the man, the conduct, the lyrics put together suggest a genuinely-held mysoginistic attitude imo.

I would dispute both sentences in this post, Terrapin:-

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

Seeing "slut" as necessarily negatively judgmental is part of the problem. That's not actually how meaning works in general (that any word has any necessary connotation).

i) "Slut" is negatively judgemental, at least in the UK. For that reason, "You're a slut!" is used as strong insult, intended to shock and hurt. Like other insults, it is also sometimes used with a kind of jokey application between friends, the way you might tell a buddy to "F off" without meaning it offensively. That special use, imo, doesn't alter the fact that the word "slut" can be read as negatively judgemental, unless there is context that makes clear otherwise.

ii) Surely this is exactly how meaning works? When we want to, we choose words that convey our judgement:
"That painting is colourful." = no judgement
"That painting is garish." = negative judgement
"He's a stallion" = approval
"He's a creep" = disapproval
Aren't those all examples of "necessary connotation"?

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

Well, this thread certainly spun off in an unexpected diriection, and since p36 it makes for some interesting reading. If I may add a couple of comments:

I got lost in some of the pages of rarified semantics and debating points, but I agree with Guybrush's assessment of FZ; the man, the conduct, the lyrics put together suggest a genuinely-held mysoginistic attitude imo.

I would dispute both sentences in this post, Terrapin:-



i) "Slut" is negatively judgemental, at least in the UK. For that reason, "You're a slut!" is used as strong insult, intended to shock and hurt. Like other insults, it is also sometimes used with a kind of jokey application between friends, the way you might tell a buddy to "F off" without meaning it offensively. That special use, imo, doesn't alter the fact that the word "slut" can be read as negatively judgemental, unless there is context that makes clear otherwise.

ii) Surely this is exactly how meaning works? When we want to, we choose words that convey our judgement:
"That painting is colourful." = no judgement
"That painting is garish." = negative judgement
"He's a stallion" = approval
"He's a creep" = disapproval
Aren't those all examples of "necessary connotation"?

Meaning is subjective. It depends on what an individual has in mind, how the individual is thinking about the term in question. There's no necessary way to think about a term, positive, negative, or whatever.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

Meaning is subjective. It depends on what an individual has in mind, how the individual is thinking about the term in question. There's no necessary way to think about a term, positive, negative, or whatever.

Based on information from interviews, books, song lyrics, articles, cultural/historical context etc. I see little reason to assume Frank Zappa had a subjective interpretation without negative connotation for the word "slut".

I've provided several arguments and also a few sources to support this, among them the account of his secretary who seem to say that Frank Zappa and The Mothers had a double standard, one in which sleeping around was okay/encouraged for guys, but seen as a negative for girls.

If you want to argue that Frank had a more special and less negative connotation in mind, perhaps you should also present some evidence to support that.

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Guybrush

Based on information from interviews, books, song lyrics, articles, cultural/historical context etc. I see little reason to assume Frank Zappa had a subjective interpretation without negative connotation for the word "slut".

First, all meaning is subjective period. But this seems bizarre to say. Zappa didn't seem to associate a negative connotation at all to the word "slut." I don't associate a negative connotation to it, either--quite the opposite rather. Zappa didn't find it negative or problematic or anything that men and women enjoyed sex. He was very pro enjoying sex.

among them the account of his secretary who seem to say that Frank Zappa and The Mothers had a double standard, one in which sleeping around was okay/encouraged for guys, but seen as a negative for girls.

I've actually played with a handful of people who played with Zappa, by the way, and this isn't the case at all as far as I know.

Re supporting it, where in any of his lyrics is there any indication of seeing enjoying sex as something negative?

[Marie Monday]

Because a negative attitude towards enjoying sex and a negative attitude towards promiscuous women is totally the same thing

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

Because a negative attitude towards enjoying sex and a negative attitude towards promiscuous women is totally the same thing

"Enjoying sex" doesn't mean "only in a traditional monogamous relationship" if we're talking about Zappa. He's not a Puritan like you folks seem to be.

Originally Posted by Guybrush

Butcher was upset when Zappa did not see her point of view. Something clicked in her mind when she saw feminist campaigners in the news. "I saw a banner that said: 'Love me less, respect me more.' And I just thought: 'Yes. That's it.'" Butcher read Kate Millett's Sexual Politics, which came as a revelation to her, as it did to many women at that time. Excitedly, she told Zappa what she had realised. "I thought he'd be sympathetic, but he wasn't, completely the opposite."[/i][/indent]

I have a completely positive view of sluttiness.

If I were to find anything offensive, it would be something like "Love me less, respect me more," because that suggests an anti-sex view to me, as if loving a woman (with sexual connotations to that) somehow amounts to not respecting them, which is complete bull****. I'm completely unsympathetic to anyone who equates sexual desire, male or female, especially re casual sex, with a lack of respect, with misogyny, etc.

Re Zappa alumni, I've worked with Ike Willis, Mike Keneally, Ed Mann, Tom and Bruce Fowler, Bobby Martin and Vinnie Colaiuta (mostly at different times, in different contexts).

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

"Enjoying sex" doesn't mean "only in a traditional monogamous relationship" if we're talking about Zappa. He's not a Puritan like you folks seem to be.

I'm sure he was fine with Gail sleeping around.

[Neapolitan]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

"Enjoying sex" doesn't mean "only in a traditional monogamous relationship" if we're talking about Zappa. He's not a Shaker like you folks seem to be.

^ ftfy

Puritans seem to procreate unlike the Shakers. If you don't the right words precisely then what you say is opened up to interpretation. You fall down in the relavist's rabbit hole.

edit: my LG pad's spell check WA $in beast mode. I absolutely hate it!

[Marie Monday]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

"Enjoying sex" doesn't mean "only in a traditional monogamous relationship" if we're talking about Zappa. He's not a Puritan like you folks seem to be.

That's not what I was claiming at all. I was pointing out that you can enjoy having lots of sex, monogamously or not, and still shame women for doing so. It's called hypocrisy, double standards, or what have you

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

First, all meaning is subjective period. But this seems bizarre to say. Zappa didn't seem to associate a negative connotation at all to the word "slut." I don't associate a negative connotation to it, either--quite the opposite rather. Zappa didn't find it negative or problematic or anything that men and women enjoyed sex. He was very pro enjoying sex.

Quoting the Butcher article yet again:

But gradually she began to experience moments of clarity. When Butcher heard one of the "Mothers" – the members of Zappa's backing band, the Mothers of Invention – say he felt sorry for one groupie because she had been with three different musicians on consecutive nights, she became irritated, since the men who behaved that way were congratulated for "scoring". Or as she says, with understatement: "I began to notice the double-standard."

Butcher was upset when Zappa did not see her point of view. Something clicked in her mind when she saw feminist campaigners in the news. "I saw a banner that said: 'Love me less, respect me more.' And I just thought: 'Yes. That's it.'" Butcher read Kate Millett's Sexual Politics, which came as a revelation to her, as it did to many women at that time. Excitedly, she told Zappa what she had realised. "I thought he'd be sympathetic, but he wasn't, completely the opposite."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...nk-zappa-women

I've actually played with a handful of people who played with Zappa.

Cool! Who did you play with?

Re supporting it, where in any of his lyrics is there any indication of seeing enjoying sex as something negative?

See again use of terms like "slut" and "easy".