*butting in*

I have to say that my favorite Atmosphere album would be Lucy Ford.
How fantastic the entire album is...It's outstanding.

I'm pretty big on Lucy Ford. I think Headshots: Se7en is underrated, too.

Headshots: Se7en is definitely underrated.
Definitely show's how talented Slug (and the guests) were back then, too.

Sess is awesome.

I agree that gangster rap was essential because at the time it was breaking the mould but every little boy in every little ghetto (and suburb and pretty much everywhere) thinks he can be a rapper now. Everyone just wants to do what is already being done. They want to copy, they want to emulate. Name me one mainstream (or underground) gangster rapper and i can name you a thousand who talk about the exact same ****.

And the subject matter does matter. It's the same bull**** over and over and over and over. It's boring and pointless. What message are they trying to convey? oh look at me im hardcore because i sell drugs and have a really cool car. bang bang goes my gun now i killed your mum **** your sister in the ass blah blah blah. It's uncreative and dull. All these rappers that are making millions are talentless as far as lyricism is concerned. They're great as male models and as stage performers but they are not rappers.

And yes SOME of them had their lives filled with inner city violence, drugs ect Although i would bet my life that only one in every hundred gangster rapper has ever seen the things he is talking about. And if they are in the mainstream and making millions then their life is no longer surrounded by those things. I don't want to hear some roid junkie who thinks he's gangster telling me how gangster he is while he shakes hands with beyonce.


The aim was breaking the mould not fitting the part.





I didn't say you have to be involved to find it interesting. I already told you there is enteretaining gangster rappers out there. But they are entertaining the same way a vin diesel movie is entertaining. And i didn't say only rap about things you have truly experienced, you can tell storys, express your thoughts, express your feelings, express your opinions. That is what art is for. Expressing yourself.

And that lack of creativity you mentioned goes hand in hand with gangster rap. There is no gangster rapper out there who is doing things differently (not now). They are all the same.

To repeat myself yet again, You want to know how to tell if someone is a good rapper? read their lyrics. If they mean something written down then they have succeeded as a rapper.

People enjoy gangster rap cause it entertains them but it's the same bull**** over and over. You can talk about ghettos and the trials and tribulations ect without acting gangster. Look at Zion I they're a prime example, they are against gangster rap but grew up in the sort of places these rappers talk about, they try to educate people (especially kids) to show them that you don't have to be a gangster to make a success of yourself.

Another reason gangster rap is ruining the culture is because now anyone thinks they can do it. People who have no understanding of lyricism or the rap culture are becoming famous and making millions. Prime example is 50 cent(although pretty much every rapper in the american mainstream and most of the underground fits this pretty well to). He has no talent as a lyricist at all.

I don't know what is worse, a no-talented ignorant prick who has no grasp of lyricism or this culture who thinks if he talks about guns and ****in women he's a rapper

or

An extremely talented lyricist who wastes his skill trying to make himself look cool.


The early gangster rappers the people who pioneered it the likes of tupac and N.W.A, they weren't doing it to be cool. They were doing it to get peoples attention and to make people realise what life was like for minorities in ghettos ect. Now, gangster rappers are selfish, incompetent, idiots.




"they start to feel his vibe, cause his rhyming is hot
so the deal arrives, and he just signs on the dot
it started so simply, all about the words that you say
but now this jerks getting paid off his work when it's played
and he aint getting **** just a few perks of the trade
he see's the real industry and what lurks in the shade
cause everything he worked for, the struggle to build, the love and the skill,
aint worth **** next to a couple of mil."

"So he sits back, feels lame dated and old,
the games taking it's toll the fames raping the soul,
- of this industry, 'cause they forgot that this is art,
the aim was breaking the mould not trying to fit the part,
but if he spits it smart he can hit the heart,
he only got one dart and he aint gonna miss the mark."


"
dedicated to the emcee...
That kid with an idea who catches the bus,
who writes life through his eyes that's attached to a brush
and he paints the world exactly how he see's it
and if rhyming is a secret i don't know how he keeps it
but believe me it's some deep **** and these kids will relate
you can't see it, but you feel it like a kick in the face
and when he grows up, ****, so will his rhymes
time after time again he'll keep blowing your mind
his flow is devine just a young buck with a curse
he sets fire to a cypher with a couple of words"



"its a damn shame that their life has a price
but they cant touch me or tell me what to rhyme on this mic
so i rhyme what i like, trying to bring that love back!"

So because some stupid people aren't doing it right, the whole thing sucks?

While a majority of the importance of being a good rapper is in the lyrics, that's not all it takes.

Your complaint should lie with a lack of creativity, not gangsta rap. You're dismissing an idea because a lot of people are doing it wrong.

Also: A big part of rap is the brag and the ego. I don't see how you can possibly say having an ego in your rap is stupid, and at the same time say that you like rap.

No it's not and it never was. A lot of rappers have big ego's that doesn't make it a part of rap. That's like saying part of being a guitarist is snorting cocaine.

and i didn't say having an ego was stupid. But arrogance is something you have to earn, talented lyricists have earned the right to be arrogant and egotistical because they are great at what they do. Being arrogant and saying you're the best without being able to back it up is at the very least foolish.

I'm not dismissing the idea at all. I've already acknowledged there is/was good gangster rappers e.g Big Pun, Big L and Royce 5'9. All i said was by fitting around the stereotype of rap music (guns, whores, drugs and chrome plating everything) they are wasting their talent.


I repeat, yet again, and for the last time.

"the aim was breaking the mould not trying to fit the part"



as for "the majority of rap lies within the lyrics but that's not all it takes". You're right, you need to have a good delivery, good flow, good rhythm and to be a truely multidimensional emcee you need to be well rounded. But looking sexy, being muscular and having lots of money are not essential to any music genre.


"So because some stupid people aren't doing it right, the whole thing sucks?"

No, actually it's a lot simpler than that. It's just this, "the whole thing sucks". It isn't a case of "some stupid people aren't doing it right". There is literally only one gangster rapper i can think of who is still releasing music and is a talented lyricist. But again, he is just fitting around the usual stuff. His first couple of albums had some different things and i was excited because it felt like he was trying to be more than just your run-of-the-mill gangster rapper. Unfortunately he slowly headed in a downward spiral and is now just a more talented version of 50cent, lil wayne, ludacris or any other gangster rapper.

I'm not saying gangster rap isn't entertaining. I'm just saying it isn't what rap should be. Vin diesel movies are entertaining but i'd rather watch robert de niro or michael caine.

Since the beginning, the brag has been a big part of rap. Battle rapping is a huge part of the hip hop culture, and so is competition. Why do you think feuds are more common in hop hop than other genres?

I don't think you're understanding how necessary it is that gangsta rap exists. Rapping about certain topics doesn't mean someone is instantly "wasting their talent." You're saying that an entire dimension of rap should not exist, and more specifically, the one that all kinds of different rap ideas spawned from. There are a lot of layers to gangsta rap, and just like any topic, there are many ways to approach it. Don't dismiss it entirely.

Just because something has become a stereotype doesn't mean it's a bad thing. There is no topic that people "should not rap about" or "should rap about." Don't choke the freedom that rap represents, man.

replies in bold.

It's not more obvious, anyone has the ability to "diss" each other with music; perhaps instrumentals would be a lot more difficult, but there are plenty of genres where feuds can happen that aren't rap. Rap battles were a huge part of hip hop's history, and self promotion is a part of the game.

There's more than one focus point in battling and rapping. How can you say bragging is a big part of rap and say "it's okay because it's an act." Okay, then gangsta rap is okay because it's an act. It's entertainment, and there's always room for creativity.

Yes it was. It's a necessity because it allowed for so much expansion. Political rap and story telling excelled with gangsta rap, and not to mention, backpack and alternative rap come from opposing gangsta rap. All that "keepin' it real, not rappin' like i'm a gangsta" rap that you like comes from gangsta rap. I'm not acting like it's the first kind that existed, but it definitely caused the most expansion.

You're repeating yourself because you're contradicting yourself. You're telling me that GANGSTA RAP SUCKS and then saying BUT THERE ARE SOME THAT I LIKE. Either say it all sucks or admit that it doesn't all suck.

Gangsta rap has its place. If no one ever rapped about it, then there would be less diversity. Also, why the fuck would there not be gangsta rap? Songs are a reflection of our society, why shouldn't people rap about that?

Yeah, I strongly believe that people should rap about (or talk about) what they want to. But freedom of speech isn't all I was talking about. Had you been paying attention, you would have realized that I mentioned to not put strain on the topics that an artist can select from.

Lastly, give me a direct explanation as to why guns, drugs, or sex is for stupid people.

"Gangster Rap" gets more than its share of negative exposure today because its gotten so big. It has seeped into other styles of rap music, as the boasts have reached the mainstream. Would you say T.I. is gangster rap? probably not. but he speaks about some of the same things on some tracks. because of this, people who like to oppose the mainstream will bag on it for this reason alone. As more people start to turn against it, its obvious that they start to influence more and more people to turn on it. The music itself is not to blame for a "lack of lyricism" you see today. It has more to do with the uneducated state of most Americans, complicated metaphors and disconnected stories aren't held on to as well as something we all know and understand. Sex, cars, and women have always been a major part of nearly EVERY style of music. Gangster Rap didn't create the filth you see today, its simply the leader in today's society. If people stopped buying the CD's, than the rappers would move on to new material. No one is forcing a rapper to " belittle himself to rapping about guns and drugs just so brainwashed idiots will listen to his music?" That is a choice they make to be heard. Don't blame the genre, don't blame the lyricist. Blame the people who buy the music. But even with that said, who are you to say what styles of music should and should not prosper or be accepted?

I loved this. Possibly my pick for album of the year.

I really liked it too... but now, outside of 'Purexed' (which is one of the top 5 or 10 songs of the year) and 'Goodbye' the repeat listens have been in sharp decline.

EDIT: While I was reading this thread a line in a song came up. Blue Scholars 'Southside Revival':

"I heard a few heads say that hip-hop was dead
No it's not, it's just malnourished and underfed"

Let It Rattle was the song that stuck with me the most. But Purexed and Goodbye are pretty top notch too.

Oh yeah, actually, that is a solid track as well... Love the drum and that soulful "ooo". Works well.

What about the title track?

Yeah it's a really nice, kind of minimalist song.

I would also have to say Never Better is still my album of the year, although, I don't feel that it's as strong as his earlier album, Audition.

I loved me some Never Better also. I haven't listened to it much recently though, i'm not sure if i'd be as fond of it upon further listening.

replies in bold as usual.


Gangster rap was once great, it was very well done, the artists were creative and intelligent. They were trying to bring attention to the lives people were having to lead, trying to get people to do something about it to change it. But now it's all about how cool you are for living that life not how desperate you are to escape it. It's gotten to the point where it is destroying our culture.

"but its a time that I miss; you ask whats the difference,
Hip-Hop was then a culture, now hip-hop's a business"




to that other guy who said "Don't blame the genre, don't blame the lyricist. Blame the people who buy the music."

I am blaming them. But the artist doesn't have to write about that. They're choosing money over their passion. They're choosing to conform to what will make them money rather than staying true to themselves. It's the rappers fault just as much as the idiotic fans who actually buy this crap.

And T.I is definitley gangster rap, what else would you class him as? He sucks as a lyricist to. Name me an american mainstream rapper who doesn't.


Biggest problem really is that americans refuse to listen to rap unless it was made in america. I hate dividing rap by nationality but right now the only rap i can listen to is australian. Their rappers have the passion and the talent that american rappers had before it went from being a culture to a business.

Ice Cube sucks as a rapper? Good gawd man what's the world come to.

You avoided so many of my questions.

My point is that everyone thinks that's what rap is about now and they're wrong and they're stupid for thinking that. It's the same as everyone thinking metal is all about screaming really loud and playing instruments really fast. It's just a stupid stereotype because people are to ignorant to branch out and actually try and listen. And the rappers selling this stuff are far from stupid (they know how to make millions) they're just completely uncreative, and talentless as lyricists (therefore talentless as rappers).

That doesn't make gangsta rap bad.

yeah you're right. Being uncreative and talentless as rappers actually makes it good rap music.

i didn't avoid any of your questions. I've answered all of your questions you obviously just didn't read the answers first time around or didn't want to accept them and therefore wasted my time as well as your own by asking them again.

Keep supporting gangster rap, it seems to suit you and you seem to enjoy it.

"Going dumb's not really a movement, you're really going dumb"

No, that makes the rappers bad rappers, and the music that THEY make bad music.

"Hey! The Jonas Brothers SUCK man! ALL ROCK WITH POP TENDENCIES IS HORRIBLE!!!"

Yeah, you have. You haven't told me what's stupid about guns, drugs, or prostitutes.

You say gangsta rap sucks and then say some of it is good. Those are contradicting statements, how do I make that anymore clear?

You're denying a lot of hip hop's history, and when you asked me what came from gangsta rap, and I gave you a list which encompasses A LOT of hip hop, you ignored it entirely.

You said that "acting like a gangsta" is stupid when it's FICTION for ENTERTAINMENT. Holy Hell, man, I guess movies are stupid, I guess ANY rap that's not literal is stupid. I guess anything that's fictional is stupid.

you either ignored everything i said (that answers all of those questions) on purpose or you really are stupid (in which case listening to lil weezy pop sum gangsta a$$ beatz homi3 is probably the best thing for you).

my last words to you (since obviously this is going nowhere and i'm growing bored of having to repeat myself).


"Consumed with the most ignorant **** you can think of
'Cause it's been dangled in front their faces like a carrot to an ass
But still they know better, they're just too scared to be outcasts
**** presidents, what do you do with your power, your control?
Control yourself
Going dumb's not really a movement, you're really going dumb
Look at the **** they play on the radio
And got the nerve to wonder why rappers keep dying in the streets
Stop putting 2pac and Biggie on magazines until you understand the significance of why they died
Don't ya'll get it? Humans are bigger than they're supposed to be
Check yourself before you come out the house holdin' a piece,
Runnin' off at the mouth, sayin' trendy **** like “yes sir” and “ye ye”
Like it's the only thing you know
Yea, that **** is fun but don't let it be the only thing you know
Ultimately, it won't get you anywhere and trying to get out of here
Leave these bad lands behind, get in touch with my spirit, my body, and mind
Cuz I'm divine
And if no one ever told you you were, well you are...

... and that's it"

Don't start being a dick. You didn't answer the question, and now you're avoiding it. On top of that, you're being condescending.

Not to mention, it's hilarious that you assume that all I listen to is gangsta rap and that I'm some huge Lil' Wayne fan.

do you know tech n9ne, big l, etc personally? just because you don't like the music they make doesn't mean they're conforming. if that is the music they think is the best use of their talent, that's their god-given right. you don't hold domain over what is and is not good source material. i understand the point you're trying to get across, but you sound incredibly pretentious in doing so.

as for TI, you're exactly right. He is MAINSTREAM rap. just because somebody raps about sex and drugs does not make it gangster rap. there is a large difference. and his lyrical ability is irrelevant to this conversation.

exactly, gangster rap and our contemporary radio rap is not one in the same. associating the current rap scene with big pun, big l, or any other true gangster rapper is both libelous and retarded.

American Mainstream Rappers That Don't Suck:

Black Thought
KiD CuDi
Wale
Shwayze
Beastie Boys
Busta Rhymes (cross him off, because you think he's talentless)
Q-Tip
Chamillionaire
DMX
Jay-Z
Mike Shinoda (Fort Minor)
Method Man
Redman
Kanye West
Lupe Fiasco
Andre 3000
Big Boi
Raekwon
Talib Kweli

Edit: I'll wait.

If you've heard Tech's latest album, you will know that he isn't trying to conform, as much as a lot of people think he is. (Even I thought he was, with Sickology 101)

are you a ****in retard? i already stated that big l, big pun, big daddy kane ect are/were talented lyricists.

and the **** you hear on the radio now IS gangster rap it's just not what it used to be it has changed into this mindless drivel we hear today. this is my whole ****in point.

i swear people just skim through posts now.

- Captain Awesome is no longer replying to this foolishness.

yeah, and you're wrong. did you not read the post you just quoted? i'm saying to you that gangster rap is essentially dead, and that everything being done by top 40 rappers today cannot in any way, shape, or form be classified as gangster rap. the contemporary rap scene you loathe so deeply is pop rap, and G-Unit, Chingy, Lil Wayne, etc. are about as gangster rap as MC Hammer is.

I think Wayne's kinda gangsta.

I think the only thing anyone needs to understand is that no topic is inapproachable.

Reposting this, because you completely ignored it, sir.

Shwayze not even :P
but the rest of the list is good

"But as with the late-80s "golden age", the late 90s/early 00s surge showed that during rap's heyday phases the most innovative music rises to the top; it's not something you have to seek out, because it dominates radio and music-video channels, booms from passing cars."
Tells you all you need to know about the article.

well it's clear that any list with this agenda is going to be highly subjective, but chamillionare and mike f*cking shinoda? each to their own... but that just reinforces the points the article was making IMO

anyway, most of the MCs you've listed (and i'd wholeheartedly agree with you on) began their careers or released their most lauded albums in the mid/late-90s or earlier.
I don't know about Wale or anything, and i know you are more in touch with the current scene Kirby, but if i remember correctly the article addresses the rise of localized scenes (and mixtapes, some going viral) to make up for the deficit in the mainstream? I mean with your knowledge of hip-hop can you honestly say that Kanye West is the best the wider public deserves for lyricism?
Reynolds was having a go at the scum that floats to the top, not the whole damn show, and I seriously doubt that Q-Tip or Raekwon's latest solo albums (as good as they may have been) made a major dent in the charts... Unlike say, 'Enter the 36 Chambers' et al

I guess rock is dead.

Maybe I missed something but I thought he only said that K. West "doesn't suck" - to which I agree. That's a far cry from 'best lyricist'. Still, he's got a brain and it shows up sometimes in his rhymes - used to anyway..

Kanye West is a producer first, rapper second. That said, he's not a bad rapper at all.