I can't stand rap because there is no melody, just words spoken to a beat. It's as simple as that. I find it obnoxious and amusical. An occasional song like that might be an interesting diversion (think: "Shattered" by the Rolling Stones or "Another One Bites the Dust" by Queen), but an entire genre of stuff like that is really going to get on my nerves. Plus, the beat is almost always the same (or extremely similar). That adds to the monotony. Yes I know there are a few rap songs with oddball beats and time signatures, but let's face it, those are relative rarities.

And it's not the rhythms themselves I dislike either - some of those can be interesting. But when you've got a guy yelling at me (not singing - talking or yelling) with that rhythm heavily (overly so, IMO) in the background, I'm going to be turned off. I don't like people yelling at me.

:whythis:

Grats on taking one kind of rap and using it to justify your distaste for an entire genre you obviously know nothing about.

I dislike jazz because I once trapped my fingers under the lid of a piano.

Funny you say that, but, like Jazz, I think some rap you kinda have to learn to listen to. I don't mean anything academic, just a familiarization with a very different type of music. Like the man says, there are a ton of different Rap genres, so you can find something you do like and then grow from there. To be dismissive of rap and hip-hop in this day and age is to close yourself off from a ton of really cool and interesting music.

And there is plenty of melody in rap too. I'm always referencing the Wu, but the RZA is a master at taking very spare elements like one piano loop and a grunt from a Shaw Brothers Kung-Fu flick and turning them into very catchy little melodies that perfectly complement the beats. That's just one example of course. Rap is a lot more complex and varied than you give it credit.

I sampled a lot of these and they were all pretty good. Very underground sounding, like rap is suddenly the purview of bedroom artists. The one that really stood out for me was Death Grips. I like that he put an erect penis on one of his album covers - a very transgressive act, but was the fact that it was a white penis the active transgression?

Anyway, Money Store is definitely going on my want list. Thanks so much for the recommendations...

Definitely an inaccurate statement. While it's true that some early hip hop was comprised strictly of beats and vocals, I'd say the overwhelming majority of all the hip hop ever made does indeed have a melody. Whether you like the music or not is a different story, but factually speaking the songs do contain melodies.

There is some hip-hop I don't mind. What I can't stand is stuff like this. This is what comes to mind when someone says the word "rap."



I don't like people yelling at me. It's just flat-out obnoxious.

This is a lot better. I'm not sure what you'd call this, but I don't call it "rap." More like Michael Jackson-eque modern Motown, I suppose.



This is in-between the two. Not really obnoxious - probably because of the absence of an overbearing beat - but it would be nicer if he sang notes instead of just talking.

Are you trying to enjoy the genre but can't find anything appealing or just here to talk sh*t about it?

They aren't just talking, there is rhythm in it. They aren't singing but they certainly are not talking.

Diabolic - 60 Bars Acapella (This dude talking?)



If you have any interest at all check these out:

Emanon - The Words (This guy can sing, he's amazing)


Grieves - Irreversible


Plenty more where this came from. It seems all you know about is mainstream "HipPop" as BinaryStar would say. There is more to it than 90s gangster rap and the current mainstream.

I don't hear any yelling in that track, but that said, what's wrong with yelling? Music is all about expression, and some of the human experience is aggressive or angry or simply extremely enthusiastic. Yelling seems appropriate in those contexts.

I would call that yelling. It's like someone getting in my face and telling me off. I just find it obnoxious, like the musical equivalent of a loud Harley-Davidson riding by your house at 3 in the morning when you're trying to sleep.

If you think Harley-Davidsons are cool, then as they say, to each his own. Just keep 'em out of my neighborhood, especially at 3 in the morning.

I'm not sure I understand the "while I'm trying to sleep" part of that metaphor. Do you only listen to music when you're drifting off? Are there not times when you're in the mood for something energetic as opposed to sleep-inducing?

This is so going to my signature.

What is the difference between rap and hip hop anyways?

I'm all ears, but typically it just hasn't been a genre that appeals to me, even in cases where I can tell there's a good deal of art to it.

That's just poetry spoken in a cadence. Not my definition of "music."

The background arrangement and refrain of that were actually pretty good. But the "singing" in the verses is just more typical rap stuff IMO.

I think one reason why it doesn't appeal to me is, lyrics have always been very unimportant to me. Rap seems to be a genre where the lyrics are the foremost point of interest in the song. I just can't get myself to care about, or pay attention to, all those words. For example, in the song above, in the verses, I found myself completely tuning out the "singing" once it became apparent to me there was going to be no melody, and I completely focused on the background arrangement. Then once the refrain/chorus kicked in, I suddenly paid attention to the singing because, suddenly, an actual melody emerged.

I can see the art to this, but once again, you just can't get me to pay attention to this guy talking to me without a melody. I find it annoying. I'm wanting to hear some notes, and while there's some semi-interesting stuff in the background, the guy lecturing at me is just a turn-off.

Well, if that's how you feel I don't think you'll ever like the genre. You might be better off just looking into some of the instrumentals from the big name producers. I just posted that acapella as a way to demonstrate there is more to it than talking.

Edit: Or maybe listen to some foreign rap where you can't understand wtf they are saying. When I do this the words act as an extra instrument and part of the beat. I'm sure other members can give you better suggestions than me in this area but I suppose it's worth a shot. Check this:


Idk, what else I could suggest to get you to enjoy it.

HipHop is a culture that includes rap. That's why you hear terms like Hip Hop Head or Hip Hop Music, aka someone who is all about the culture or the type of music that the culture listens to, respectively.

The culture consists mainly of the 4 elements: Breakdancing, MCing, Graf Writing, and DJing.

Here: Hip hop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Music, to me, is something I want to take me to another place. A guy lecturing me/yelling at me does not take me to another place, it sounds like my mother lecturing me for doing poorly on my report card, or something.

Makes no difference. In the other videos, I'm immediately tuning out the guys talking to me in English, so I'm not paying attention to what they're saying anyway. If it's in a language I don't understand, I'll just do the exact same thing.

BTW, since you mentioned music in other languages, here's an example of sort-of the reverse in action. About a dozen years ago a guy from Brazil on another of my internet hangout got me into some Brazilian music, particularly this band (actually a one-off project) called the Tribalistas. I really got into it, in particular the song below. Believe it or not, but I have actually memorized the words to this song (as best as I can make them out) even though I don't understand a word of it. This is what I mean when I say that lyrics aren't important to me - I don't even need to understand them, they could be gibberish for all I know but I don't care because I like the actual music part of it.

Ice Cube was definitely confrontational before Hollywood made him cuddly - West Coast rap in general was pretty in-your-face. As much as I love NWA, I can see where it would turn some people off. The intensity of it is part of it's charm. It's kind of the hard bop of rap. Not for turistas...

Your mother sounds like Ice Cube? Damn. :laughing:

For me, he's a pretty fantastic rapper, or at least he was in his heyday, and he definitely takes me to another place when I listen to him.

Y'know, now that you mention it, stuff like that Ice Cube tune does take me to another place - out of the room, as quickly as I can! :laughing:

i prefer the korean hip hop/pop...

Well if you're not into the rapping element of it, then it's not going to be for you. You have to take it for what it is. It's like listening to Bob Marley with the parameters for what makes a good thrash metal song, you're not going to like it with that mindset. If it's not your thing then I understand but looking at it differently is worth giving it a shot. As for the musicality, there's so much hip-hop out there that doesn't go near what you describe and a lot that does. I'm sure there are loads of instrumental hip hop albums you'd enjoy.

I kinda understand where you're coming from, because that's what I thought of rap a long time ago.
But the interaction of the words, their flow and the beat is hip-hop's kind of melody.
You might suddenly come to like it, as I once suddenly did. It's certainly nothing one could rationalize, but being open is always a good thing when it comes to music, so don't write an entire genre off too easily.

No melody?!? You don't find any melody in this...



or this



There is a rhythm and a chorus. I can understand not wanting to hear someone talking every F'n second, but back in the day rap was gold.

^
You missed the rest of the conversation.

But both of those examples you gave are precisely the kind of no-singing-no-melody stuff I dislike. No I do not hear a melody in those two songs, just a guy yapping away to a beat.

Very well, if those songs can't turn you on to rap than I concede defeat. I could listen to this all day long, but different strokes for different folks.

@ DriveYourCarDownToTheSea

I imagine music first began as simple, rhythmic beats. Drums and the like. So, in all likelihood, your concept of music is actually rather strange, historically speaking. Hip hop, and possibly punk to an extent, might actually be taking music backs to its original roots, albeit in a much altered form.

I think most musicologists agree that the earliest music was singing. There probably was a melody, of some sort. Most music of primitive cultures involves some sort of melody, even if a simple and primitive one. The earliest music was likely not much different.

And even if you're right, all you're telling me is that rap and punk rock is a regression. No wonder so many people think it sounds "primitive."

you're saying there's no melody.... you mean there's no melody in the vocals. that's what makes it rap. if you hate it then don't listen to it and be on your way.

Yes, I mean no melody in the vocals. I realize that's what makes it rap. But of course that also makes it why I don't like rap.

I was simply responding to the OP's question.

I've heard hip hop described as the first truly postmodern form of popular music—that's not something I'd describe as a regression. Minimalism isn't somehow more "primitive" than maximalism and deconstructing form isn't more "primitive" than embracing form.

that's an eloquent way to put it. i've always thought if its so easy to do what rza does by breaking down old soul records and turning them into grimy beats then why is it so many try and yet so few succeed at creating the right sound for the right time and place.

Well then let's get even more minimalist and eliminate the beat, too. Already got rid of the melody with rap, let's see what else we can pare off. No melody, no beat - just some guy speaking lyrics.

Oh wait - that would be called "a poetry recital."

At some point it ceases to become music.

BTW, minimalism has nothing to do with postmodernism. Some postmodern music is minimalist, but postmodern music, by definition, is agnostic about being minimalist or not. And even if rap was postmodern, does not mean it isn't a regression. A lot of postmodern stuff (in music and elsewhere) has been a deliberate regression. Postmodern architecture is perhaps the best-known example: In postmodernism many building were designed to deliberately evoke buildings of 100, 200 years ago. That is a regression; it is doing something that was already done in the past.

people listen to it for enjoyment which is really the only proper way to define music. the melodies are simplified but the lyrics and the rhythm and cadence of the vocals are made more complex to counter-act that. if you want to try to claim its not music based on some technicality then feel free. watch the rest of us not give a **** about your technicality. if you want to say its not art and takes no talent then you should be able to do it yourself better than the best who have done it. otherwise you are just trying to tear down something you don't understand because it doesn't appeal to you.

I wasn't saying that minimalism is what makes it postmodern, I was responding to your claim that minimalism is somehow "primitive". What makes it postmodern is the way it deconstructs popular music via things like sampling and turning the medium (records) into an instrument.

We didn't get rid of the melody with rap, the vocals were simply turned into a percussion instrument. There is still melody in most hip hop songs, it's just not coming from the vocalist.

If there's no melody then what's the bass doing?

By definition:

I'm not all that familiar with musical terminology. I looked this up a while back while having a discussion with Jans. Does the highlighted phrase mean satisfying to the listener or that the notes satisfy some musical criteria?

If it is the former than the word melody is subjective. Jans pointed out how his grandfather didn't see the melody in the music we were discussing at the time, so if this is the case than I can understand where he was coming from.

Don't really see the point of posting the dictionary definition because I'm not arguing against him. I'm just wondering why in his criticism about it he talks about the vocals and the beat yet leaves out the bassline which is probably the most melodic part of a hip hop song.

I don't see how asking a question that promotes discussion makes it seem like your arguing against him but if that's how you want to take it okay.

The bass line is included in the beat. He didn't mention the high hats either OMG. :crazy: