Kanye is already a legend. Kendrick is absolutely going to be considered that. Drake too probably. They are the obvious ones. I'd love to see people like Danny Brown, Chance the Rapper and Big K.R.I.T. reach that status in the mainstream at some point.

I find it ridiculous you think Janet is not a Legend and Kanye is when she has an album under her belt that broke cultural/racial barriers and Kanye does not.

Although talented, Kanye West is an arrogant overrated *******.

There is no way in hell he deserves 21 grammys.


MJ was an innovator. He innovated something new so that is not a good example....

-Kanye (already is), Nikki Minaj, Drake, Kendrick, Lil Wayne (mainstream) <- I don't like any of these artists but you have to give them credit for their impact/success.
-Immortal Technique, MF Doom, Aesop (underground)

I don't see how your opinion on what he deserves matters. It doesn't change the facts.

I think it's important to make a distinction between mainstream and "underground". Sure, Aesop will go down as a legend in some people's minds, but he's never going to reach Nas/Outkast or even Mos Def type status overall.

I agree with all that on Kanye. You don't have to like someone nor do they have to be incredibly innovative to be considered legends. I'm honored that you were nice enough to pull a straw man argument on me though.

MJ made his music based off of standards that were already very common in Pop music. By your standards (sans the bias of course) Michael Jackson is not innovative, a statement that I somewhat agree with. You should try to look at the situation without the fan girl or hater glasses distorting your opinion.

That's pretty much what I was referring to when I was talking about popularity in underground circles.

Unless DWV edited his post I apologise for not seeing him say "(underground)" after his second list.

Lil wayne i could concede becoming a legend. ive even heard some ppl credit him for the term 'Bling' though idk if it's true if that was his creation.

Kanye for me started on the right path of becoming a legend but got too arrogant along the way and now doesn't the deserve the Legend status. Not just cause of his attitude but because imo the quality of his music has also dropped.

Innovation is creating a completely different idea that was not there to begin with. I think you are confusing being artistic and creative with being innovative and boo it is not the same.



I am specifically insisting there is not innovation in the mainstream. I obviously can not speak for every single underground unknown rapper.

Teddy Riley- invented New Jack Swing in the mid 80's

Fats Dominos- Rock

James Brown- Funk

Sly and the Family Stone- Innovated Psychedelic music and was the First to fuse this with (funk and soul)

WAR-Same as above but they were the first to incorporate Latin, Reggae and international music in their funk, rock, r&b, soul fusion

Jimi Hendrix- electric guitar playing style

He has not innovated anything to the rap genre, how is this a straw man argument?

The fact that he is an ******* also makes my argument a strawman?


This is not accurate. What he did with music videos was not being done before his time. He made music videos into an art form.

He is an innovator and any non MJ fan walking down the street will say the same thing.


His concerts and performance were innovative as well and were not done before his time.

These things might not relate to music directly but they are associated with music and were new ideas so its fair to call him an innovator.



Also, while I am not a big fan, The Beatles were innovative as well the only one out of that bunch that is a fraud is Elvis Presley. He has not innovated anything.

You don't have to be innovative to influence a genre. Success alone is sufficient enough.

No it was an edit. I made two separate lists to try and distinguish between the two, but it still seemed confusing, so I fixed it. Also, to clarify, I think Kanye is innovative in the industry for his production not his MC abilities.

What does MJ have to do with this thread? his creative merits are not in the hip hop genre.

No one said you had to be innovative to influence a genre. This was actually the point I was trying to make with the "Chronic album"

Thanks.

His music is no where as good as it use to be.

He is very overrated.

Good point.

I think there are different levels of legendary status.

Yes, because you're misrepresenting my argument and proving facts against this nonexistent argument that you think I'm making and believing that you're proving what I'm saying wrong. You did it by making the conversation about Kanye's being an asshole and arguing that there is no innovation in the mainstream when that's nowhere near what I was addressing in my post. It's called a fallacy. Look into it (as well as the rest): Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How about you focus on what I'm actually saying instead of picking and choosing little things to criticize with your cute little "facts". I was talking about whether people would consider him a legend, not whether I would, not whether people like him, and not whether I like him. Cut that fallacy bull**** out, it's quite exhausting.

By your definition he is not an innovator because he hadn't created something completely different. Music videos had already been an industry before he entered it and everyone who ever made a music video failed to make a single change in the music video world. There is no way that anybody after the first person to create a music video can be called a legend by your criteria. Several hundreds of artists played shows on large scales before Michael Jackson with lots of flair, therefore he's a big copycat on those shows and cannot be considered an innovator in any way.

Now the above is basically what your standards look like when they're taken apart and applied to Michael Jackson instead of modern music/hip hop. It's clearly fucking ridiculous because Jackson did innovate in those fields, those are some of the things that helped him become a legend, but when you set these impossibly high standards against him he could never enter into that status. Do you understand why people would think that your argument is ludicrous when it's applied to music that you clearly know nothing about and that they listen to and enjoy? I don't like Michael Jackson but looking at it from an objective perspective I would agree that he is a legend. It might better your musical perspective to attempt to do the same and at least consider that other people besides for the greatest music mind that is Soulflower might consider that person a legend, therefore making them a legend in their given field. This is why I would say that Kanye's a legend, even if I don't like his music, but simply because of his status among so many people as one of the greatest. He has innovated in those fields by bringing certain things within his music to the public eye that wasn't necessarily there before. But go ahead and ignore this, I know you're quite a fan of that.

I wonder which cherries you'll pick this round! I look forward to it.

Its a bit sad really cause i remember the first time i heard 'through the wire' i thought: "Whoa, who's this kid?" cause he kinda came outta nowhere with a great style

He seemed more humble and more about the art not the ego back then and it reflected on his music.

Very True however you implied that album innovated gangsta rap and that is simply not true...

Also, Straight Outta Compton was innovative it innovated a completely new style of rap.

Nothing innovative to see here. Hip hop's already been invented, El-P, why do you even try to make new music? You're just the same as every other hip hop group.

He brought that genuine **** back in 96

So I can't say Kanye is an *******? lol

Kissing Kanye's ass makes my argument objective to you? :/

I don't see what my opinion of him as a person has to do with my opinion of him as an artist if I am coming with receipts to prove my point.

The fact that I feel Kanye is an ******* is seperate from how I view him as an artist and as an artist Kanye has not innovated anything for the genre of rap music...period. All he does is sample and yes he does fuse different genres and elements but he is not the first to do this.



Facts matter in this discussion because it makes arguments stronger and I am stating them to make points.

I was not referring to you, I am referring to people and the average music listener, now what are you talking about?

If you don't make legendary music or have contributed anything new to the genre how can people consider you a legend?

Your exhausting yourself.



Thats not based on my criteria.

That poster implied The Chronic created Gangsta Rap and it did not period.

Michael Jackson innovated music videos by making it into an art form. His contributions were NEW and innovative. Not only was it innovative, it was groundbreaking and it changed the formula of music videos as a whole. It changed it into something completely new.

The Chronic did not change Gangsta Rap. It helped popularize it.

Thats the difference



Did other acts have theatrical elements in their concerts such as fire works, big projections, flying projectors into the audience among other things in their shows BEFORE Michael Jackson?

NO



I think your argument as well as your nastiness and disrespectful conjectures is rooted in the fact that you hate me and you hate Michael Jackson and thats fine. :)

I won't lose any sleep! lol

However, Its almost as if your hate blinds you in which you see and misinterpret things that are not even there in our debates.

However, if you spew inaccurate facts about MJ, make sure you come correct because I will check you with the receipts.:nono: This post is full of contradictions and inaccuracies. When you want to slam dunk an argument make sure you research next time before you do it. :nono:

Its like you work overload to prove you hate me and you hate Michael Jackson in all your posts and you end up stressing your own self out LOL

We GET IT you hate me and you hate Michael Jackson. Now that you have gotten that out the way, work on maturely constructing an intelligent un-bias response related to the music without taking everything so personal. Lighten up.

El-P is f*ckin great it took me like 3 songs to recognise there was something different about him so in my book he is an innovator

His vids are always top notch too and always go along with his rapper persona.

Agree.


Its really sad. He has't been the same since his mother passed away.

I'm guessing that you didn't click on that link because you're misrepresenting what I'm saying again and committing the same fallacy. No, your opinion on him as a person is as irrelevant as my opinion on his personality. Sure a good personality would make me more inclined to like someone but in terms of what people will be saying in years to come (my own personal opinion of him is irrelevant as well).

That was just a quip that was making fun of how assertive you are in your statements like they're cold hard facts. [X artist] never did [innovate, sacrifice a goat, etc.] PERIOD. FACT.

You're describing what sounds quite a bit like my approach and if you were doing that objectively (as I am attempting to do, but we all have our biases) you would see beyond the hating lens that people hold some artists like Kanye in very high regard. I think the fact that so many consider him to be the best would achieve him legendary status. Again, this is not in my own point of view, but rather my collective interpretation of what other people do. Say I was discussing Facebook with you and you were trying to tell me that Facebook is not going to have any relevance in the future and won't be considered in the history of the internet when that's just not true due to the sheer popularity of it and the high regard that many of its users hold it in. I may not like Facebook, you may not like Facebook, but that still doesn't change its status in the public eye. That's what I'm talking about when I bring up the word legendary, and I try not to let my personal opinion overtake them. That's why I've talked about artists that I like in here because since I like their music I'm inclined to learn more about them and have more to draw from when defending my opinions on them. No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To quote Jack Donnaghy, the public is an idiot. Consider this outside of your own opinion for once please and attempt rationality because this record's broken and I might have to take it off of the turntable for a while. Many people consider this music legendary, their criteria of what legendary is is probably different from yours; doesn't change the fact that massive amounts of people are disagreeing with you because you're holding onto this fringe opinion. Their intentions mean nothing to me, I'm just saying what I'm seeing int he music world and interpreting that to decide who I deem legendary.

I call out your fallacies because I put enough effort into these posts to try to avoid them (not that I always do, we're not all perfect). I just want people to do the same when they have in-depth discussions with me like we're having.

There really never will be a true Scotsman with you will there? I wonder if I'll ever be able to kick a ball through those goalposts, it seems like they're moving farther and farther away.

More strawman but aimed at JWB. He said that he enhanced it by coming out with a new interpretation of it. Do I have to invent jazz to make creative jazz music?

So the Chronic popularized elements of Gangsta Rap just like how Michael Jackson popularized the use of storytelling in music videos that had been present before? Or how Kanye West helped popularized the use of soul samples in hip hop and helped incite the crossover between hip hop and pop even though both of those things were already present? You're right, they are legendary.

You mean that you like Michael Jackson but not any of these other artists that we're talking about?

Yes. It's a bit different from what he did, like I said before, some artists can be innovative by making an idea there own.





These two acts had theatrics in their shows. Not to the scale that Michael Jackson did, but it's still present and therefore he did not invent it. That still doesn't disprove that he innovated in the field of performance though, like how you think saying that an emcee is already within an established genre but didn't invent the genre, thinking that this eliminates any possibility of them being innovative.

I'm sorry that you feel that way. If it's of any consolation I thought that this one has been one of our better debates with insults and nastiness kept to a minimum. You have a strong opinion and I have a strong opinion, we're just discussing it. It can be fun and I wouldn't even consider it an argument, it's happened many times between other members and me like Chula and I in the What Is Music, What Is Not? thread about John Cage's 4'33". It dragged on for a long time but I really enjoyed the logically based debate that we (and other members like Batlord and Ninetales who joined in) had. I do have a bit of a biting writing style, so I'm sorry if you felt that that was directed at you as an attack. I'm just attempting to see this through rational eyes while I think that you're coming from an emotionally charged place, and you haven't acted childish (until you started alleging that I hate you and MJ) and put forward your opinions somewhat reasonably. That's not an attack, it's an observation on your character. We both have strong opinions but it seems like only one of us is able to handle that fact.

I don't hate you, don't fear. I actually kind of like you these days because you help invigorate discussion in the music forums which I see as a good thing. I don't like Michael Jackson's music, but I don't hate him either.

Oh, the irony. Maybe practice what you preach in regards to the emcees that we're discussing? I brought up Michael Jackson as an example of an artist who doesn't entirely innovate through sheer invention and you responded, leading to a music discussion and here we are. You'll note I continuously refer to Michael Jackson as a legend because so many people like yourself consider him so and he DID innovate within the fields that you mention even though I don't like his music. So I'm not sure why you think that I'm blinded by hate, I'm just bringing up counterexamples to your inconsistent application of what you're calling innovative.

I don't dislike you as much as I once did, quite the opposite these days. If my phrasing is harsh for you, consider that I'm either making an observation about you, or I might just be taking the piss and having a good-hearted jab (refer to my rapport between other members and you'll see that I make comments that could seem mean spirited but are actually just good fun). If I feel the urge to insult you, I will do it directly and you will be made very aware that it is an insult to you. You may see it long before by imagining some ill-will on my part, but I want to make it exceptionally clear that this is not the case in this discussion.

Now lighten up.

Now if we are saying N.W.A. innovated a new style of rap of with Gangsta Rap do they really get the credit as innovators, considering factually and honestly the first "Gangsta" rap song of all time within' the Hip-Hop community is widely regarded as Schoolly D's "P.S.K. What Does It Mean" followed shortly by the second Gangsta Rap cut with Ice-T's "6 In The Mornin'" Both of these tracks came before N.W.A. and legitimately heavily influenced their work once they started. So would it not be wrong to say N.W.A. merely helped popularize it as Dre did with the Chronic? I mean let's give credit where credit is due here if we wanna talk about the pioneers for the subgenre.

I understand what you are saying about Kanye but imo Kanye is not a legend or is someone who will be considered one down the line. He has not created any groundbreaking or culturally transcending albums. He is good artist but his music has really taken a dive in the later years. I am in no way suggesting people should not like Kanye or think he is a legend. After all everyone is entitled to think what they want. However, since this discussion is on innovative artists, he is not an artist imo that reflects that in his works. He mostly recycles and uses others ideas. While some of his music is creative, its not something that has not been seen in rap music before. Also, I mentioned that Kanye was talented as well but once again, these things do not necessarily make an artist a legend.


I know what point you are trying to make but I don't feel that I am doing this with Kanye at all. I am stepping outside myself and I am trying to look from your perspective but I don't think my bases for my opinion on Kanye applies to this.

My opinion on Kanye as an innovator once again has nothing to do with him as a person. I am specifically analyzing his music and what he has contributed or lack there of. I just mentioned he was a jerk because he is but it probably was irrelevant to this discussion but that is not the bases for my opinion on Kanye artistically.


Your right there are probably people who disagree but there are also plenty of people who feel the same way as I do. I know because I go on many different message music boards and this argument is brought up.

Once again, if you think Kanye is a legend you are entitled to think that while I disagree.

Some of these "fallacies" you are pointing out are not really "fallacies." I am not exactly sure what point you are trying to make when you criticize certain things and I think you use certain words such as "fallacies" inappropriately. Maybe a better word is "opinions, judgements, perspectives, clarity etc"


lol I am actually really trying to understand where you are coming from.


No. Once again, I have said multiple times so far that while the Chronic did not give birth to Gangsta rap, it still had a significant impact on the genre. I have made this same point you have many many times lol

No.

Before Michael Jackson, music videos actually did not have a story line. They were disorganized, had no structured and were often video recordings of bands playing in the studio. There was no cohesiveness or meainfulness to them or in relation to the song.

Michael Jackson changed that. He created a story line for a music video and he was the first to incorporate rehearsed choreography in videos with a story, theme, message. Music videos became meaningful not just as a video but as an illustration to a song. There was structure to it and they began to be taken more seriously. People had to now put effort into making it meaningful to the song and not just a random recording.

IMO, his innovation was beneficial and needed.


But there are other rappers that have done this already and have done it better like Mos Def. There are rappers prior to Kanye that have done all these things. This does not take anything away from Kanye. However, when someone uses a term legendary to describe an artist, I look at that.


I pointed out that Kanye was talented and believe it or not I am a fan of his earlier works but I am not a fan of him now because I can not connect with his music now. For me, music is personal which is why I get emotional especially if it involves an artist or piece of music I feel personally attached or connected with.


Well I disagree.

Michael Jackson created spectacle that was never seen before his time in his dance performances and concerts. I don't really wanna post a bunch of MJ videos to revert completely from this thread but these things are different from what Michael did and you even mentioned it yourself (another contradiction lol) so odd you would mention them as an example.




And your right with this post, it doesn't mean they still can't be innovative but once again this topic was on the Chronic and whether or not it innovated Gangsta Rap.



Well I don't think its childish to say when you have been a bit nasty towards me in the past. Sometimes you think you don't come off condescending when you do but I don't want to whine to you about that but just saying. Anything involving MJ, will always be from an emotional place because he means a lot to me and I feel personally connected to him so that is probably why. I will always come off defensive with him lol but yes I probably should work on that.



I understand where your coming from.

I see your point about MJ but MJ really has nothing to do with this topic so we should probably stop talking about him.

Good point.

I think NWA's album though lyricism was on a different level and had not been done before but yes I see your point.

I would say both albums probably pioneered Gangsta Rap. I know SOC is considered to be the main album that did it, but The Chronic sounds nothing like it imo. Or maybe SOC pioneered Gangsta Rap and The Chronic pioneered G Funk. The Chronic sounds more like Niggaz4Life which is why I prefer that album to SOC.

I agree with Soulflower about Kanye.

Kanye is a legend. Simple as that.

Thanks, he is not a legend.

same here

Legendarily overrated for sure.

Regardless, it's pretty obvious that he's a legend at this point.

He's been by far the biggest influence in Hip Hop since the mid to late 90's.

What has Kanye innovated?

The most effective use of marketing and social media to elevate his image than what we've seen before him.

Legendary =/= innovative but legendary can = influential.

There is a difference, Soulflare.

Nothing much, musically at least.

Arrogance

https://imaletyoufinish.wordpress.com/

This.

You really think Kanye is THAT great? Lol

I don't see it...

Please enlighten me.