How many genres? (lyrics, singer, alternative, blues, dance)

jackhammer · 08-14-2007, 06:24 PM

Some background:

I have been a metal fan since 1986, after being hypnotised by IRON MAIDEN : LIVE AFTER DEATH. After being in the scene for a while, I noticed the many sub genres of metal, and found a fair amount of narrow mindedness. EG I liked PINK FLOYD (not heavy-but they are a rock band), but my METAL friends constantly took the rise as FLOYD were not deemed heavy enough. I eventually tired of this ; and although I kept listening to my metal music, I pretty much left the scene (circa 1992-2000).

Upon slowly integrating myself back in the scene, I was shocked to find that the sub-genres had increased threefold. Now I don't know what band is classed as what. This f[u]cks me off. The metal scene has to be one of the most pretentious scenes ever. Now before I get ****-I LOVE metal, it has shaped my life, and has lead me to my current situation as a father. HOWEVER there seems to be a constant need to categorise a band. The only other genre that has this is DANCE. Hmmm-both loved by under 25's. Not exclusively; but primarily.

Why are there so many sub genres in Metal? Indie is Indie at the end of the day, Reggae is Reggae etc.

I absolutely hated genre tags when I was younger, and I am utterly dismayed to find that the genre tags have got wider!

Guess what though-to the outsider, it's still metal. We seem to have an overwhelming obsession to categorise music, to associate ourselves with a certain form, and look down with disdain at other forms of metal.

I am not saying that we dont need categorys, but why so many? It seems like it's an unconcious effort to create something new.

A band like LAMB OF GOD are considered Metalcore. This tag gives me a generic make up of Metal and Hardcore. If that is correct, then METALLICA are Metalcore, they basically fused DIAMOND HEAD with DISCHARGE, but they are thrash!

I would love it for metal fans to stop being so precious about their tags, because in 10 years it does'nt matter. If you like what you are listening to, then that is the only tag you need.

(I know I'm going to get crap for this but hey!).

Muzak · 08-14-2007, 06:39 PM

A band like LAMB OF GOD are considered Metalcore. This tag gives me a generic make up of Metal and Hardcore. If that is correct, then METALLICA are Metalcore, they basically fused DIAMOND HEAD with DISCHARGE, but they are thrash!

Lamb of God combines modern hardcore (far different then the OGs) with groove thrash tendencies.

Metallica first was a combination of as you said Diamond Head (NWOBHM, Aka classic rock/punk drumming, blues and classic influences, a higher pitched singer) and Discharge (classic hardcore punk) which makes them thrash. Thrash is, in its crudest form, a combination of traditional metal (like NWOBHM) complexity in the music, with the aggression, and heavy distortion of original hardcore punk.

I personally find it best to use as many genre tags as I can when describing a band. I don't know why but it makes feel like I can identify them more than just throwing a general tag on them and forget everything.

jackhammer · 08-14-2007, 06:58 PM

See I cannot here any GROOVE whatsoever in LAMB OF GOD. Groove is derived from soul/funk/ reggae and blues and I cannot hear any of this in their music.

I know what Metallica are, that's why they are thrash-a literal translation of thrashing genres.

When I describe a band, I prefer to use as few genre tags as I can.

Keep posting though, I want this one to run, as there are no definitive answers.

Muzak · 08-14-2007, 07:19 PM

The groove comes from the Pantera, my friend. As they are one of the more well known metal bands, and the bringer of groove thrash. This mostly influenced many groove based 'metal' bands (Nu Metal, Devildriver, Modern Hardcore in some aspects). Lamb of God is one that really based their style on the Pantera worship more than the scene metalcore of today. Some say they are more of a post thrash influence (see Meshugga and Byzantine).

Also, 10 years ago, most metal genres that existed (that most knew about, Black Metal and Death Metal are different cases) were very similar to each other. Speed Metal, Thrash Metal, NWOBHM, even Power Metal at the time were all closely related in sound in some way or anther. In this day and age, the genre tree has branched so far and made such diverse styles that many see heavy use of genre tagging as a way to keep the metal umbrella from being meshed into chaos.

For instance, Kamelot's The Haunting sounds nothing like Wormed's Tunnel of Ions yet they are both metal.

I agree that many might abuse the genre system of metal or use it incorrectly but I think that with the type of genre metal is, the genre tags are needed.

jackhammer · 08-14-2007, 07:30 PM

I still am not getting this Groove tag. I have heard a couple of Pantera tracks (which I did'nt like), so if they instigated it, then they have used a blues based influence for their groove, which then brings the genre full circle!

--For instance, Kamelot's The Haunting sounds nothing like Wormed's Tunnel of Ions yet they are both metal.---

I have'nt heard either track. I would appreciate some up's!

--(that most knew about, Black Metal and Death Metal are different cases)--

why are they different? Black Metal was primarily a theme based music I.E iconography, lyrics etc and Death Metal was Thrash relieved of it's punk roots and a metal progression of prog influences.

Muzak · 08-14-2007, 08:03 PM

because both genres were extremely underground at that time and not many people knew of them in their growing days. I wont deny that they are very unique sounding genres, its that they were still very obscure at that time.

for the songs, I cant upload them now but I can provide alternative means of listening to them

YouTube - KAMELOT - The Haunting
MySpace.com - WORMED - ES - Death Metal / Experimental / Metal - www.myspace.com/wormed

joyboyo53 · 08-14-2007, 09:44 PM

i hear you jackhammer. as i have said before "genres lead to ignorance". although i see the advantage of genres from time to time, in general they tend to just make people closeminded to something. i just like music

Alexander the Grape · 08-14-2007, 10:18 PM

I'd say metal and hardcore are the worst about subgenres. Seriously, you can add -core to the end of any genre and you will find out its already an established hardcore subgenre.

I personally lump all hardcore/metalcore/deathcore/grindcore together as hardcore, mostly for iPod convenience.

DearJenny · 08-14-2007, 10:34 PM

I just use the term metal when talking to my friends but talking to other metal fans it makes it easier because of instead of saying I like metal, I'm able to say I like "symphonic metal" as opposed to liking "death metal". Which shows that I like softer vocals with insane music in the background. It reveals a lot to fellow metal fans.

jshpik1 · 08-15-2007, 12:51 AM

I'd like to think that the genre tags have emerged due to the different sounds that have emerged in metal over the years. A lot of the current metal has roots from the Thrash Metal / Metallica days. Like Crossbreed sounds nothing like Slipknot, and if you know what the genre sounds like, then another metal fan says such and such band sounds like such and such genre, you just might know what they're talking about.

08-14-2007, 06:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
jackhammer Ba and Be. Join Date: May 2007 Location: This Is England Posts: 17,331	How many genres? Some background: I have been a metal fan since 1986, after being hypnotised by IRON MAIDEN : LIVE AFTER DEATH. After being in the scene for a while, I noticed the many sub genres of metal, and found a fair amount of narrow mindedness. EG I liked PINK FLOYD (not heavy-but they are a rock band), but my METAL friends constantly took the rise as FLOYD were not deemed heavy enough. I eventually tired of this ; and although I kept listening to my metal music, I pretty much left the scene (circa 1992-2000). Upon slowly integrating myself back in the scene, I was shocked to find that the sub-genres had increased threefold. Now I don't know what band is classed as what. This f[u]cks me off. The metal scene has to be one of the most pretentious scenes ever. Now before I get ***-I LOVE metal, it has shaped my life, and has lead me to my current situation as a father. HOWEVER there seems to be a constant need to categorise a band. The only other genre that has this is DANCE. Hmmm-both loved by under 25's. Not exclusively; but primarily. Why are there so many sub genres in Metal? Indie is Indie at the end of the day, Reggae is Reggae etc. I absolutely hated genre tags when I was younger, and I am utterly dismayed to find that the genre tags have got wider! Guess what though-to the outsider, it's still metal. We seem to have an overwhelming obsession to categorise music, to associate ourselves with a certain form, and look down with disdain at other forms of metal. I am not saying that we dont need categorys, but why so many? It seems like it's an unconcious effort to create something new. A band like LAMB OF GOD are considered Metalcore. This tag gives me a generic make up of Metal and Hardcore. If that is correct, then METALLICA are Metalcore, they basically fused DIAMOND HEAD with DISCHARGE, but they are thrash! I would love it for metal fans to stop being so precious about their tags, because in 10 years it does'nt matter. If you like what you are listening to, then that is the only tag you need. (I know I'm going to get crap for this but hey!). __________________ It be my music and film collection. “A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.” Last edited by jackhammer; 08-14-2007 at 06:34 PM.*

08-14-2007, 06:58 PM	#3 (permalink)
jackhammer Ba and Be. Join Date: May 2007 Location: This Is England Posts: 17,331	See I cannot here any GROOVE whatsoever in LAMB OF GOD. Groove is derived from soul/funk/ reggae and blues and I cannot hear any of this in their music. I know what Metallica are, that's why they are thrash-a literal translation of thrashing genres. When I describe a band, I prefer to use as few genre tags as I can. Keep posting though, I want this one to run, as there are no definitive answers. __________________ It be my music and film collection. “A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.”

08-14-2007, 07:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
jackhammer Ba and Be. Join Date: May 2007 Location: This Is England Posts: 17,331	I still am not getting this Groove tag. I have heard a couple of Pantera tracks (which I did'nt like), so if they instigated it, then they have used a blues based influence for their groove, which then brings the genre full circle! --For instance, Kamelot's The Haunting sounds nothing like Wormed's Tunnel of Ions yet they are both metal.--- I have'nt heard either track. I would appreciate some up's! --(that most knew about, Black Metal and Death Metal are different cases)-- why are they different? Black Metal was primarily a theme based music I.E iconography, lyrics etc and Death Metal was Thrash relieved of it's punk roots and a metal progression of prog influences. __________________ It be my music and film collection. “A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.”

08-14-2007, 10:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
Alexander the Grape Un****withable Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wyoming Posts: 196	I'd say metal and hardcore are the worst about subgenres. Seriously, you can add -core to the end of any genre and you will find out its already an established hardcore subgenre. I personally lump all hardcore/metalcore/deathcore/grindcore together as hardcore, mostly for iPod convenience. __________________ I'm back like JC lol.

08-14-2007, 10:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
DearJenny Raptor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Metro Detroit, MI Posts: 1,321	I just use the term metal when talking to my friends but talking to other metal fans it makes it easier because of instead of saying I like metal, I'm able to say I like "symphonic metal" as opposed to liking "death metal". Which shows that I like softer vocals with insane music in the background. It reveals a lot to fellow metal fans. __________________ So here's to living life miserable. And here's to all the lonely stories that I've told. Maybe drinking wine will validate my sorrow. Every man needs a muse and mine could be the bottle.

08-14-2007, 06:39 PM	#2 (permalink)
Muzak Music Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,050	A band like LAMB OF GOD are considered Metalcore. This tag gives me a generic make up of Metal and Hardcore. If that is correct, then METALLICA are Metalcore, they basically fused DIAMOND HEAD with DISCHARGE, but they are thrash! Lamb of God combines modern hardcore (far different then the OGs) with groove thrash tendencies. Metallica first was a combination of as you said Diamond Head (NWOBHM, Aka classic rock/punk drumming, blues and classic influences, a higher pitched singer) and Discharge (classic hardcore punk) which makes them thrash. Thrash is, in its crudest form, a combination of traditional metal (like NWOBHM) complexity in the music, with the aggression, and heavy distortion of original hardcore punk. I personally find it best to use as many genre tags as I can when describing a band. I don't know why but it makes feel like I can identify them more than just throwing a general tag on them and forget everything.

08-14-2007, 07:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
Muzak Music Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,050	The groove comes from the Pantera, my friend. As they are one of the more well known metal bands, and the bringer of groove thrash. This mostly influenced many groove based 'metal' bands (Nu Metal, Devildriver, Modern Hardcore in some aspects). Lamb of God is one that really based their style on the Pantera worship more than the scene metalcore of today. Some say they are more of a post thrash influence (see Meshugga and Byzantine). Also, 10 years ago, most metal genres that existed (that most knew about, Black Metal and Death Metal are different cases) were very similar to each other. Speed Metal, Thrash Metal, NWOBHM, even Power Metal at the time were all closely related in sound in some way or anther. In this day and age, the genre tree has branched so far and made such diverse styles that many see heavy use of genre tagging as a way to keep the metal umbrella from being meshed into chaos. For instance, Kamelot's The Haunting sounds nothing like Wormed's Tunnel of Ions yet they are both metal. I agree that many might abuse the genre system of metal or use it incorrectly but I think that with the type of genre metal is, the genre tags are needed.

08-14-2007, 08:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
Muzak Music Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,050	because both genres were extremely underground at that time and not many people knew of them in their growing days. I wont deny that they are very unique sounding genres, its that they were still very obscure at that time. for the songs, I cant upload them now but I can provide alternative means of listening to them YouTube - KAMELOT - The Haunting MySpace.com - WORMED - ES - Death Metal / Experimental / Metal - www.myspace.com/wormed

08-14-2007, 09:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
joyboyo53 down the rabbit hole Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: the mountain called monkey Posts: 764	i hear you jackhammer. as i have said before "genres lead to ignorance". although i see the advantage of genres from time to time, in general they tend to just make people closeminded to something. i just like music

08-15-2007, 12:51 AM	#10 (permalink)
jshpik1 Groupie Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 14	I'd like to think that the genre tags have emerged due to the different sounds that have emerged in metal over the years. A lot of the current metal has roots from the Thrash Metal / Metallica days. Like Crossbreed sounds nothing like Slipknot, and if you know what the genre sounds like, then another metal fan says such and such band sounds like such and such genre, you just might know what they're talking about. __________________ Metalhead