The Groove Metal Thread
 

Thrash metal has its own threads on here but groove metal tends to get less attention. Groove metal for those of you that don`t know, is basically an offshoot of thrash metal, but performed at a slower pace than thrash and usually played at mid-pace with a focus on both heaviness and groovy syncopation, band for band groove metal is probably heavier than thrash. Of all the different genres that make up metal, this has to be my favourite.

Groove metal takes an important place in modern metal, as it virtually carried the metal flag throughout much of the 90`s and bridged the gap between thrash metal in the early 90`s and Nu-Metal in the late 90`s, it basically kept metal in the commercial spotlight for much of the 90`s. This was important, as metal in this period had already lost a lot of its fans to grunge, post- grunge or other alternative types of music at the heavier end of the spectrum.

The Bad Brains were often described as giving the genre its attitude, but it was Pantera with the album "Cowboys from Hell" that virtually defined the genre, even though fans of Exhorder may dispute this! Whilst Pantera carried the genre throughout the 90`s with a string of classic albums, other bands were equally important for its development such as Prong and Fear Factory. Also bands like Machine Head provided it with power and energy, White Zombie provided it with humour and Sepultura mixed it with Brazilian tribal rhythms and took into the realms of oblivion with the albums "Chaos AD" and "Roots".

Throughout the 00`s groove metal has come in to its own again, largely thanks to Lamb of God again imo one of the best metal bands of the last 10 years and other bands such as Chimaira, Byzantine, Cavalera Conspiracy and Throwdown are all representative of the genre. There are also other not so good bands such as DevilDriver and Five Finger Death punch out there as well and other groups such as French metal outfit Gojira, who have fused it into their own progressive and death metal sound and given us groove French style based around environmental themes.

[citation needed]

ps. Tommy Victor's opinion is a citation.

I think it is not talked about as much as thrash, because well... thrash is good, groove metal, not so much.

I always thought of Pantera being the defining band for groove metal, even though they were pre-dated by Exhorder. It just seems that Exhorder only exists as a way for people to show that they know more about metal than Pantera fans, I can honestly say I've never met anyone who listens to Exhorder but have met people who will slate Pantera for being rip offs lol.

[Relax]

I would never go so far as to call Bad Brains a metal band, but they did take the distorted metal sound break it out of its confines, and laid down a lot of attitudinal riffs that were pretty loose, but right in the pocket, so I know what's he's saying and agree to an extent.

Secondly, don't be a troll.

Both "Cowboys from Hell" and "Slaughter in the Vatican" came out around the same time. I do not think it was a matter of ripping off. Even members of Exhorder have said it was not the case.

Pantera also predates Exhorder (counting the glam years).

Bad Brains just had nothing to do with groove metal. I wanted to know the research done. Bad Brains also had nothing remotely metal. They were out before Thrash. Misfits I would see as more of an inspiration for thrash and ultimately groove metal than Bad Brains.

Not trolling either.

Oh, the amount of posturing I've seen from certain portions of the metal fanbase suggested that Exhorder were the originals in terms of groove (I think everyone has laughed at Pantera's glam image). I guess the moral here is 'never trust an elitist'.

Well, yeah,, similarities between Exhorder and Pantera on those records will always be there. But do I think it was a case of let's rip off this band by Pantera... not really. As said, the two albums in question came out around the same time, and were recorded around the same time most likely. Had "Slaughter in the Vatican" been out for a year or two before "Cowboys from Hell", the debate would be different.

Firstly, Its not necessary to have anything to do with a genre in order to help influence it. Secondly, Tommy Victor of Prong was the citation and I see no reason to suggest he was making stuff up.

The Pantera album came out around 3 months before Exhorder, not only did it pre-date the Exhorder album, but Pantera were already an established band and the Pantera album was always far better than the Exhorder album anyway. When Exhorder or their fans scream that Pantera stole their sound its just sour grapes.

They certainly weren`t a metal band, but the attitude with which they performed their hardcore and reggae style was certainly influential.

At no point in the OP does it say that Bad Brains were any sort of metal band. They were not but they were crossover punk, that crossover incorporating reggae and yes, metal. They took what was then considered a metal sound and put a groove on it, and part of the metal community took notice and was influenced by it. Do you really need reinforcement from someone who's paid to write to accept that? It's not grad school, buddy.

Bad Brains were crossover now?

****, yes they were crossover!!!

If you say so.

Have you actually ever listened to the Bad Brains?

I'm just going to pretend I'm arguing against 1 person, ok?

There is more to influence than album release dates.

Pantera's sound, as pointed out earlier, radically changed from Glam to Groove. This change is largely attributed to Mr. Anselmo.

What city did Mr. Anselmo come from before joining Pantera? New Orleans. What band had already established a sound that would later be showcased on "Slaughter in the Vatican"? Exhorder. Further, not only as Anselmo aware of Exhorder, he had their demos (which, yes, were out '86 and '88)

So forgive me, but when a band which had all the hallmarks of Glam, suddenly jumps from the sinking Glam ship, and suddenly finds itself sounding a LOT - down to the ****ing vocals - like another band whose existence they were certainly cognizant of....

... I find it hard to believe they arrived at that sound through independent evolution. And I have difficulty finding them to be sincere.

Yes they were.

Have you not heard their I Against I album?
Full of cheesy 80s sounding metal guitar solos.

An artist running off with the demos of another band and pinching their act....sounds scandalous, seems like the music industry is full of these immoral types, whatever happened to original thought!

Pantera jumping off the glam ship and into something new, seems like a great move in hindsight. I imagine a lot of bands by the late 80's wanted to be free of the glam/hair metal tag.

Nobody has suggested here that Pantera arrived at their sound through independent evolution but "Cowboys from Hell" will be remembered, whereas "Slaughter in the Vatican" will only be remembered by music banter buffs.

Finally release dates are far more important than you believe, as it can often make or break a band, Exhorder are a perfect example of this, as were Diamond Head in the era of the NWOBHM. These were bands who just missed the boat as it were and as the say the rest is history.

Only thing I ever thought Bad Brains got right, was the RIOR album. "I Against I" was just ok, but I would not call it Crossover. If anything I would call Bad Brains a fusion band, fusing Hardcore with Raggae and Metal on that album, but not Crossover. Crossover is Crumbsuckers, Cryptic Slaughter, Attitude Adjustment, D.R.I., Cro-Mags, Suicidal Tendencies, Wehrmacht or (early) Corrosion of Conformity to name a few... listening to those bands it has a specific sound and style attacted to it, and Bad Brains are nothing close to that sound. I would refer to Bad Brains more as a fusion group.

It really wasn't that radical of a change, because "Power Metal" in no way shape or form, could be construed as a Glam record...it's speedy thrash metal and neo-classical power metal. Nothing like poppy Poison or Def Leppard, though Pantera did have the "hair", which leads many people to superficially lump them in with glam. The big difference is they detuned their guitars, which is the influence of the stoner/doom scene that was concurrently happening. You also have to remember, Anselmo had some friggin range early on, which he completely lost by the time Pantera got to their most groove oriented metal record, "Far Beyond Drive". "Cowboys" has some great numbers like "Shattered" and even some ballads demonstrating that range. It was really a transition of a couple of albums before Pantera reached that monolithic Exhorder groove style, which even then, I don't know if you could soley attribute it to Exhorder.

Its been many years since I ever listened to anything by Pantera before the "Cowboys From Hell" days but based on that video, the sound is very speedy thrash metal with an almost retro style NWOBHM feel to it and the vocals very reminiscent of Rob Halford. Agree that Pantera were probably at their groove height with the "Far Beyond Driven" and "The Great Southern Trendkill" albums.

you know the difference between me and Pantera?

my dimebag hasn't been smoked.

I think your missing something there, Bastard.

If you'd not forgotten that crucial word that made the joke work, it might have been funny :/

fixed.

Yes...nothing better than making fun of a dead legend. Personally I don't think it would matter if Pantera were copycats (they weren't). They were better than Exhorder in nearly every aspect. They were successful for a reason. Mainstream doesn't always equate to "selling out" or sounding generic (ex: Nickelback, Foo Fighters). It could just mean they were a good band. Did Megadeth sell out? No, but they are still immensely popular.

What are the community's thoughts regarding Throwdown. Yes, I know they started out as a hardcore band, and yes I'm aware of their Pantera-esque sound. However, from what I've heard from their latest effort Deathless, they seem to have a very calculated groove sound that works really well with Dave Peters' voice.

It is a joke, but Dimebag wasn't that much of a legend. He is only now cause he is dead, and dying is the easiest way to achieve legend status, especially if you have some recognition already.

Pantera was always a mediocre band of rednecks anyways. Dimebag was the closest to talented they had, though I think he is also given to much credit personally for being a better guitarist than he actually was. Boring seeing him listed as best metal guitarist in mainstream magazines... Chuck Schuldiner could of shredded circles around him... yet he never seemed to make the lists.

You know how many bands stole from Pantera... uncountable. Pantera to me will remain the birth of nu-metal.. Metalcore, Nu-Metal and other styles all owe to Pantera.

Their early stuff is hardcore and its on the "Venom & Tears" album that they really sound like Pantera and yes Dave Peters does sound like Phil Anselmo. Downside of the band, is that they can come across as just a copycat Pantera act. Just listen to the Day of the Dog song and don`t tell me that the chanting doesn`t sound like The Walk.

I`ve not heard yet the "Deathless" album yet, so can`t comment on that.

Haha what???

They aren't even in my top 20 favorite bands, but to call them mediocre is...silly.

Death isn't mainstream, so why would a mainstream magazine include it on one of its lists? Dimebag had an instantly recognizable style (making Pantera more popular than MB-rival Exhorder), and even though Schuldiner's innovations helped bring about death metal, death metal never took off with mainstream audiences (why would it?)

Death was mainstream during the time the lists were most made, what you talking about? They were on MTV, "The Philosopher" even made it onto Beavis and Butt-Head... that is mainstream... they along with Morbid Angel, Carcass and Entombed were bands in the style that everyone knew.. big following in the mid 90's, as a result of Headbangers Ball. The mainstream knew who Death were.. and Chuck was known to the MTV crowd.

I do not see who Pantera can be viewed of as anything but mediocre. A few good songs, and a whole lot of macho crap. "Far Beyond Driven" is to me just as loaded with cliches as the nu-metal it would inspire, and is just as creative.

But you said: When Exhorder or their fans scream that Pantera stole their sound its just sour grapes.

He still went, strongly, from a melodic style of singing to incorporating a style that was, shall we say, reminiscent of that employed by Exhorder?
I realize there are more important things than originality, and that Pantera did out Exhorder-Exhorder, but I remain troubled at how Pantera timed this switch in their style.

I think the difference in popularity may have something to do with the difference the mainstream in 1990 would react when picking up two different albums; one of which is entitled "Cowboys From Hell" and has a single with the same name, the other is called "Slaughter in the Vatican" and has "Anal Lust" as it's catchiest track.

Anal Lust is a really great song, though.

...and considering how attractive the band members were, it's surprising that they didn't get major rotation on radio, right?

I would still class Prong as one of the main progenitors of Groove Metal.

The argument regarding crossover has nothing to do with this thread really as the music combines 2 forms of music outside of the mainstream.

Death was mainstream within the metal community, but were not nearly as well known as Pantera. I'm talking 2 million albums versus 20 million albums sold. The term mainstream is used pretty loosely, but I would consider for something to be mainstream it would had to reach a mainstream audience. People may have been aware of Death, but was it frequently listened to? Compared to Pantera, no.

Nickelback = mainstream in all communities
Disturbed, Slipknot (others considered "mainstream") = mainstream within the metal community

People I am around everyday know that I am an avid Slipknot fan, and are aware of the band, but most of them listen to mainstream tunes (Lady Gaga, Chiddy Bang, Dave Matthews) or my more boring friends that are still stuck in the classic rock rut I escaped at age 10. They couldn't name a Slipknot song to save their lives, save for the ones that *shudder* appeared on Guitar Hero. I hear the words "scary" and "screamo" and "banging on drums" thrown around quite a bit, and that is pretty much the extent of their knowledge. In the same way, Pantera (somewhere between the success of a Nickelback and Death in terms of mainstream) were much more widely known, accepted, and listened to than Death. Death was only "mainstream" within a much smaller minority.

I guess I can see how you wouldn't like Pantera, but to call them mediocre is kind of a stretch.

Maybe not from a lyrical standpoint though lol

Yeah. Metal mainstream alright... still, when looked at that way, why not make mainstream metal magazines? not like I expect to see somebody like Chuck Schuldiner or Trey Azagthoth on the cover of Hit Parader or Rolling Stone... but I would expect to see them get their due respects in a metal magazine, which would be read by the metal mainstream you are talking about.

That's nothing, check out these lyrics... this could explain why Death Metal never went mainstream..:

Messiah - Extreme Cold Weather


With all my long hair, I don't need a hat to wear
Extreme cold weather is reigning outside,
the wind is blowing and the frost does bite.

I hope I won't freeze my toes off,
cause then I will have to cough
an icycle's hanging from my bum,
and there lies my neighbours frozen mum.

The thermometer's below zero,
don't try to be a hero
by running to scool
Now you're frozen dead you fool.

Extreme cold weather is freezing my blood,
I'd always have summer if I'd be god.
Now is april and you have thawed,
you won't step out again into the cold.

It's sunny, funny and really warm,
and my body feels like reborn.




----


wow...just wow.

Included video so you can hear I am not making these groundbreaking lyrics up.

Pantera are the bridge band that many people got into in the early 90's that had elements of heaviness and groove.

Unfortunately many fans thought they were rather crap (myself included) and they just happened to be a band around at the right time to appeal to newcomers and some older hardcore fans.

I am rather glad that some friends cannot name Slipknot song names because they are not memorable at all.

This is not necessarily a slight on Slipknot but more the general decline of Metal music around this time and lack of identity that is only now starting to be rebuilt.

I will always accept that Slipknot helped a whole slew of kids get into Metal but their longevity is almost nil and their contribution to the scene is virtually nil even 10 years after they first appeared.

Success is fleeting. Longevity and lasting appeal earns brownie points.