Why? When Venom and Hellhammer came along, black metal was just really ugly and noisy rock and roll. Bands like Sarco***o and Necrovore were basically just really ugly and noisy thrash bands. Without Bathory (and to a lesser extent Celtic Frost) developing black metal into it's own sound that was distinct from thrash and death metal (regardless of the similarities), black metal may (keyword, "may") have been rendered obsolete by the development of death metal.

Edit: (I posted my post just after you posted this):

Bathory's first four albums. Bathory, The Return..., Under the Sign of the Black Mark, and Blood, Fire, Death.

Yes, may, but without Kreator and Slayer death metal might have never born either.

Edit: And I don't know about Under the Sign of the Black Mark and Blood Fire Death, I've been talking about Bathory and The Return.

Based on what I know, when I think of black metal I think of the major influence on the genre being Celtic Frost and the Morbid Tales album. But I pretty much think of Bathory being The first true black metal artist, as their debut album came out the same year as the CF one in 1984. I pretty much think of Bathory being the essential black metal act before their switch to viking metal. Also Sarcofago are another first wave band that helped pave the way for the Norweigen scene (the second wave) and the wave that most people associate with black metal.

Yes it would've. Death metal was just the logical conclusion of thrash metal. It was just thrash metal faster, heavier, more brutal, with more ****ed up vocals and lyrics. That's a bit of an oversimplification, but as long as there was someone trying to up the ante, death metal was inevitable.

Hail Caesar!!!:laughing:

Seeing that there were people trying to up the ante with black metal I don't see it as an impossibility either.

Edit: But this conversation is getting out of hands, seeing that we were simply discussing the label of Bathory's first albums, not whether there would be black metal without it or not.

But those bands, like Bathory and Celtic Frost, I see as being much more individualistic. They weren't part of some black metal movement like the thrash and DM bands were. Thrash and death metal evolved much more by committee than black metal did. Black metal evolved because of a few fringe weirdos. One or two bands going under for whatever reason, or deciding that they could make more money by just playing straight thrash or hair metal or whatever may very well have doomed the entire black metal genre to extinction.

Yes, but some key bands missing might not only be a bad thing, because it might as well be a positive thing, who knows?

Huh?

If Bathory, Celtic Frost etc. were not there, people would have obviously taken other influences and produced another sounds, which gets complicated at this point, but it's only obvious that there would be black metal / some sort of replacement for it for it because of the weirdos like Tom Gabriel Fisher / Quorthon.