About writing! (lyrics, instrumental, genre, Leonard Cohen, American)

littleknowitall · 04-25-2006, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DontRunMeOver

To consider something as poetry, by the normal definitions, it has to use language in a way which is more beautiful, or more rhythmic, or more vivid, or somehow more creative than the way in which language is typically used in everyday conversation. I agree that MOST lyrics are poetic/poetry, but it is entirely possible to sing non-poetic words to music, fitting them to a melody, which is enough for them to be described as lyrics. The pure fact that they are sung isn't enough to promote the words to the title of poetry, as the definition of poetry comes from the use of the use of vocabulary and grammar, not from the context in which that vocabulary and grammar is read.

AC/DCs lyrics, however (although Moley disagrees), are a form of poetry but they are very simple and clear poetry. They do use metaphor, rhyming and specific meters, so they definitely count as poetry.

heh, im not so much in disagreement with ac/dc being poetry, i just didn't use the right choice of words, i didn't think it was going to be payed much attention to but when i said poetry i wasn't really thinking into it, what i clearly meant was that lyrics didn't have to be overly descriptive and in depth, you people nit pick alot you know that?

however i will not accept that ALL lyrics can be called poetry.

DontRunMeOver · 04-25-2006, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moley

heh, im not so much in disagreement with ac/dc being poetry, i just didn't use the right choice of words, i didn't think it was going to be payed much attention to but when i said poetry i wasn't really thinking into it, what i clearly meant was that lyrics didn't have to be overly descriptive and in depth, you people nit pick alot you know that?

however i will not accept that ALL lyrics can be called poetry.

That's right, I know what you meant and you were right. Its only nit-picking to people who just listen to lyrics though... to those of us who have to write lyrics, write them decently every time and get our asses kicked if we don't, these little details can be important!

~~bungalow~~ · 04-25-2006, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DontRunMeOver

To consider something as poetry, by the normal definitions, it has to use language in a way which is more beautiful, or more rhythmic, or more vivid, or somehow more creative than the way in which language is typically used in everyday conversation. I agree that MOST lyrics are poetic/poetry, but it is entirely possible to sing non-poetic words to music, fitting them to a melody, which is enough for them to be described as lyrics. The pure fact that they are sung isn't enough to promote the words to the title of poetry, as the definition of poetry comes from the use of the use of vocabulary and grammar, not from the context in which that vocabulary and grammar is read.

AC/DCs lyrics, however (although Moley disagrees), are a form of poetry but they are very simple and clear poetry. They do use metaphor, rhyming and specific meters, so they definitely count as poetry.

Lyrics are poetry. Not sometimes, all the time, if they are considered lyrics, then they are poetry, always.

DontRunMeOver · 04-25-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungalowbill357

Lyrics are poetry. Not sometimes, all the time, if they are considered lyrics, then they are poetry, always.

Bill! I think we're going to have to call time on this poetry and lyrics argument, as we're just going to end up going round in circles, I think we've both been saying exactly the same arguments for the last few posts. What was the original point of the thread? Oh yes...

skiesofganymede, could you talk us through your own songwriting process?

skiesofganymede · 04-25-2006, 05:30 PM

My own process is probably pretty similar to what I've seen. Write guitar riffs first, have melodies stewing in me head, either use the vocal or guitar line to determine the next riff (like, what follows from here?), then go away put words to it, and maybe muck around with the strong structure if I change my mind on something in the process.

Lyrically...I'm all over the place. I maybe put myself in a mindset that's been interesting me, or look at photos, or mentally walk places and try to grab words and phrases that sort of encapsulate that, or get at some aspect of that. Songs tend to emerge. Can't write in a row. It's a really ineffectual way to go about it, but I usually end up with lyrics I'm not too embarassed by at the end, so I guess it's all okay.

Philosophically...I think maybe words like love, happiness, sadness, are, to some degree socially programmed, or at least we're socially programmed to lump how we feel into big descriptive categories. But is that general feeling of discontent really sadness? etc. So I guess alot of what I write is about cracking open a mindset, figuring out all the mechanisms that keep it going, what it feels like to be in that 'place', maybe how that relates to society on a whole. Sometimes questioning my own motivations, because sometimes the way you justify things isn't really why you do them.

I guess language is a tool for communicating the abstracted: things you can't possibly communicate by pointing and grunting, so ideally I want to push that aspect. At least this is what I aim to do...or aim to do adequately, one day.

A_Perfect_Sonnet · 04-25-2006, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DontRunMeOver

Bill! I think we're going to have to call time on this poetry and lyrics argument, as we're just going to end up going round in circles, I think we've both been saying exactly the same arguments for the last few posts. What was the original point of the thread? Oh yes...

skiesofganymede, could you talk us through your own songwriting process?

The only problem is, when you try to argue your opinion against a known fact, you're usually going to be wrong.

TheBig3 · 04-25-2006, 07:49 PM

So are we posting poems now? becuase I'll do that.

Slowhand · 04-25-2006, 08:00 PM

^ ditto.

TheBig3 · 04-25-2006, 08:07 PM

Ill make a thread.

DontRunMeOver · 04-26-2006, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_Perfect_Sonnet

The only problem is, when you try to argue your opinion against a known fact, you're usually going to be wrong.

Are you able to provide me with a reputable source that states that all lyrics are poems? If so, then you win. If not, there's still an opinion line between the 'all lyrics are also poems' and the 'some lyrics are also poems' camps.

A_Perfect_Sonnet, what is your songwriting process?

Big3, by making a thread, what do you mean? Could I suggest that we keep the songwriting thread's layout like it is now, but recommend that people say whether what they are posting is purely a poem, is a 'lyric' which is not yet to music, is a lyric with a vocal melody only, is a lyric with a melody and chords or is a whole song with full accompaniment. Ok, maybe that's a bit long winded, but you get what I mean?

04-25-2006, 05:30 PM	#45 (permalink)
skiesofganymede Groupie Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 29	My own process is probably pretty similar to what I've seen. Write guitar riffs first, have melodies stewing in me head, either use the vocal or guitar line to determine the next riff (like, what follows from here?), then go away put words to it, and maybe muck around with the strong structure if I change my mind on something in the process. Lyrically...I'm all over the place. I maybe put myself in a mindset that's been interesting me, or look at photos, or mentally walk places and try to grab words and phrases that sort of encapsulate that, or get at some aspect of that. Songs tend to emerge. Can't write in a row. It's a really ineffectual way to go about it, but I usually end up with lyrics I'm not too embarassed by at the end, so I guess it's all okay. Philosophically...I think maybe words like love, happiness, sadness, are, to some degree socially programmed, or at least we're socially programmed to lump how we feel into big descriptive categories. But is that general feeling of discontent really sadness? etc. So I guess alot of what I write is about cracking open a mindset, figuring out all the mechanisms that keep it going, what it feels like to be in that 'place', maybe how that relates to society on a whole. Sometimes questioning my own motivations, because sometimes the way you justify things isn't really why you do them. I guess language is a tool for communicating the abstracted: things you can't possibly communicate by pointing and grunting, so ideally I want to push that aspect. At least this is what I aim to do...or aim to do adequately, one day. __________________ Punk is an ideology, not a haircut.

04-25-2006, 07:49 PM	#47 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	So are we posting poems now? becuase I'll do that. __________________ I've moved to a new address

04-25-2006, 08:00 PM	#48 (permalink)
Slowhand Music Addict Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 48	^ ditto. __________________ Mitch Hedberg rules. Slowhand's Poemy Pothole

04-25-2006, 08:07 PM	#49 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	Ill make a thread. __________________ I've moved to a new address