VEGANGELICA

slappy, I'd be happy to critique your poetry. I'll wait 'til later, though, when I've had more sleep...and also maybe you'll have decided by then to risk it and make your own thread! EDIT: I see you already did!

I understand what you mean about poems forcing themselves to the surface, such as when you realized you and your girlfriend should continue on separate paths and you wrote about your feelings to show them to her.

You said you feel the idea of posting your poetry publicly is scary to you, and you wonder what gives me the nerve to post what I write.

I find that posting here inspires me to write more often and more carefully, and it also gives me ideas on what to write in the future, so posting has been beneficial for me. I like trying to think of things to post that might cause a response, and so posting encourages me to experiment. These benefits of "going public" offset any fears I might have.

Also, by the time I post something, I am always fairly contented with what I wrote (and I have checked the spelling! ), and so I don't worry about negative comments too much because the person I am really trying to please is myself. If I'm satisfied with my writing, then I can handle other people's dislike of it.

Most people who comment give constructive criticism, which is helpful. And if someone hates what I have written and uses it as a reason to feel I am stupid, then that would also be useful to know...because that would mean I must have hit *some* sort of nerve! If I want to write lyrics or music that people like (and sometimes I do), then I need to find out what they hate as well as what they enjoy. (And if I want to write something that people hate, that information is also useful. )

More generally, I don't base much of my sense of self-worth on other people. And I remember that life is short. In 10,000 years, none of this will matter. So, I write what I want. I appreciate when people take their time to respond in any sort of fashion, because time is precious. So, thank you for responding and for sharing from your own life!

I'd say about posting more of your own poems, go for it, slappyjenkins. I'd enjoy reading more of your life distilled into words. I feel our thoughts and experiences are precious, and I love it when people post parts of themselves in their threads. I've seen how much you enjoy writing. You are bursting with thoughts and feelings. Your enthusiasm inspires *me*. Ideally, that's what a forum like this does: it encourages people to improve their craft (however they wish to) and have fun doing so.

I find that writing is fun to do even if I am the only person who will ever view the result...but we are social beings and I think we are really motivated by connecting in some way with other people. If sharing your poetry online gives you even just a small feeling of connection with others, then I feel it is worth the risk that comes with self-exposure.

__________________

slappyjenkins

^^I have been looking over your work. And again thank you for the time you took to look over my poems. I treasure that input so very much. I wish I could get that across to you in the way it deserves. All I can say is ......thank you.

OMG spelling...I am the worst spellerer ever. And I hate grammar with a vicious passion. If grammar was a real person we'd be circling each other in an ancient colosseum fighting to the death. And I'd be like 'To who do you want me to notify upon your inevitable demise????' And he'd be like 'It's to whom you ass.' ..'Aw, you motherf***!' And spelling would be in the stands, 'Kick his ass!'...'You shut up spelling! You're next!'

I had to free myself of those worries long ago. I figure there are proof readers and enough spell correction that I can concentrate on my writing and let the creation come into the world. Now if you read my 'as of yet' published work and there's a line that says, 'And in the end he realized that it was Good's hand that directed his life.' Then you can blame spell checker for that!!!

And about sharing...shoot I want to be remembered for something and possibly make some cash along the way... SHALLOW ain't it? I hate to admit that in myself, but I've come to a point where I worry about what mark I'll leave on this world and I also have some expensive tastes that I need to indulge...her name is Candie...hehehe...just kidding, Candie isn't that expensive. Just kidding, there is no Candie, I made her up. Hey, I'm a writer you can't believe anything I say! I tend to make things up!

BUT as I was saying, I am going to return the favor and critique some of your peotry. I think I have to look through and take a one at a time approach. There's so much to look at!

Thank you my friend, I hope your day was lovely!

slappyjenkins

I was going to do a line by line critique again of some lyrics you had posted on here. But I could see that once again I would be making comments or asking questions so I'll just ask the questions right here about "Brilliant Tragedy".

I recently made the mistake of posting in the religious threads here. WHEWWWW...I don't know if everyone here is simply anti-religion or don't have the tools/maturity to cope with this subject, but beware getting into one of those discussions, it INSTANTLY turns ugly.

And here I am trying to get you into one of those discussions sort of....I like everything you said in Brilliant Tragedy. It is a very logical and common sense observation of the reality we live in...it is most likely true that we were put here to live and to die and that's about it...so the most important thing becomes how we view our life, if we are able to still find the love and courage to go ahead and live it while we're alive. I enjoyed it!

The question is, and the answer is probably overly self-evident, do you believe in any 'creator' or anything spiritual or above us? I promise I'm not calling you out. I am honestly curious. I believe art in all its forms(painting, drawing, writing, acting, speaking, singing, composing) is one of the most intimate things you can share about yourself...the only thing as intimate in my opinion is your true feeling on yourself and your place in the universe and your thoughts on God. I'll go ahead and say it, I believe in God, but I despise organized religion. The reason I believe in God is I feel a design in everything around me. And no I don't mean my house and car and my clothes. I feel a design to the universe. Not neccessarily a PURPOSE, but surely a design. And trust me I don't do the converting thing...I'm cool with whatever you have to say...it's not my duty to sway you one way or the other.

And also your feelings about eating meat(I saw from a few of the lyrics/poetry here)...I'm a meat eater, please don't hit me! *ducks* And again I promise promise I'm not calling you out on that, but I've noticed things about the natural world I'd like to get your opinion on. I have had a love affair with animals all my life....stop laughing, not that kind of love affair....I've had pets of course and I've even helped hurt animals get better and released them back into the wild. We had a duck fly over our backyard, well two ducks together, and a HAWK swooped in and tagged them both midflight, craziest, coolest but saddest thing I'd ever seen. The one duck got away but the other landed in our back yard. And the hawk was standing over the duck with his wings full spread and I think he was about to peck or claw him to death but I shooed him away. I didn't think a hawk would be scary but I was actually afraid...I was like this hawk is going to kill me AND the duck and feast on both of us. Well his/her poor wing was broken and we put a splint on it and it healed up just fine. The duck was getting used to us when we took the splint off so it was sad to see him go. He flew away maybe 3 days later after the splint was off so we must have done something right.(Yes, we named him Mr.Quackers) We always hoped that he found his mate. By the way...I loved that duck, I really did, but oh my god was he mean and he S#!T all over the yard. We got him a yard pool and he pooped in that too. I loved how he would dip his head under the water like was at the lake and then look at us like, man this pool is only 2 foot deep you cheap #@@#%@^.

Anyway that lovely little story leads me to this discussion that I would love to have with you. With how you feel about eating meat....how do you view animals eating/hunting/harming other animals in nature? Because we've all seen the nature channel and how tigers and lions use hunting patterns and tactics to bring down big game. And I've personally seen any number of cats I've had go outside and chase down chipmunks, squirells, birds, and lizards. All of my dogs at one point have bagged small animals, from birds to possums and I'd find them chewing their guts out or chewing on bones. And don't you love getting that 'present' from your dog or cat...that little bird or lizard that they caught and wanted to show off to you...OMG...I had a cat who was a superb mouser and he layed a dead mouse on my chest while I was sleeping!!! I felt this little drop on my chest and woke up and he was there and I started petting him and felt it there on my chest....I said 'Aw Chester I'm so proud of you.' But I was thinking, what the hell cat, dropping dead stuff on me while I'm sleeping.

I guess I was wondering if you ever ponder those things and how do they affect your writing on that subject?

I do admit that is the main reason I feel little to no remorse in eating meat. I've grown up around animals and every single pet I've had would naturally hunt other animals to eat them. (We even had a minature pot-bellied pig that would root for chipmunks. That pig would eat anything from bugs to rodents. Never saw him eat a bird though I think he would if given the chance.)

I guess I didn't line by line critique Brilliant Tragedy because I'm trying to figure out how to critique in a more constructive manner. I don't want to do another...'oh well this line is good, but I don't like this line, and I love this part' because I'm sure you are not getting much out of that.

VEGANGELICA

You're welcome for my time and my input on your poems. I'm glad to know it was helpful. I do feel time is precious, and my favorite way to double its length and value is to share it with someone else.

Slappy, you're not as bad of a spellerer as you think. I think your spelling is very god.

Your brave fight with your foe, Grammar, whom you circle and antagonize with your "to who's" as Spelling looks on, reminds me of a song I wrote called "Common Ground," which amuses me now when I imagine it to be about you: http://www.musicbanter.com/song-writ...tml#post780516.

I don't think wanting to be remembered for something and possibly make some cash along with way is shallow. I agree with this quote by Mark Sullivan: "To find a career to which you are adapted by nature, and then to work hard at it, is about as near to a formula for success and happiness as the world provides. One of the fortunate aspects of this formula is that, granted the right career has been found, the hard work takes care of itself. Then hard work is not hard work at all."

Even if writing isn't a career, having your work valued enough to make some money would be very satisfying and useful, in case Candie shows up.

Knowing that you want to make money from your writing does change some of my recommendations for you, though.

I think you might best achieve your goal of earning money through writing if you were to connect with someone (such as a reputable literary agent Fiction Factor - What is a Literary Agent? ) in the writing world to help you promote your work to the appropriate publisher and audience. Self-published poetry *may* reach a sizeable audience, if you are lucky, but I think many fine writers simply never get much notice because the world is flooded with poetry and poets wanting attention.

Since readers have limited time and funds, you need your work to come to their attention in a dramatic way to lure them to want to buy it.

I think for publishing to be successful, a writer requires a critical mass of people who are saying, "Hey! His stuff is good!" to cause others to want to read it. This is the reason that editors, literary agents, publishing companies, and promotion are so important. People are social animals and their perception of what is "good" and of "value" is often influenced by what other people (appear to) think of the work. Self-publishing is like a lone wolf howling in the wild. People may or may not listen. Now if you have a whole pack of wolves behind you howling, you'll likely garner more attention.

Here's a good example of why I feel promotion is so valuable. You've seen those videos of expert violinists playing beautifully in subway stations for free? Below is a video of Joshua Bell playing in a subway station. People walk on by, apparently unmoved and unappreciative, not knowing they're listening to one of the world's top-notch violinists. The same violinist, the night before, was able to fill a huge theater with tickets selling for $100 a pop.

charles hugh smith-Crowds Ignore World Renowned Violinist: What Does This Say?

Joshua Bell (violin virtuoso) "self-publishes" his violin-playing in a subway station.
Doesn't go well. Draws a tiny audience. Gets just a little bit of money.


Stop and Hear the Music - YouTube


Another thought I had about your goal of making money is that as you prepare to publish, I think you should edit your work ruthlessly. Throw out beloved poems that mean something to you but don't move other people.

This is one reason a public forum can be helpful: it gives you a chance to see which of your works gain positive attention. I think you have to balance that harsh critique of your own work against your desire to express your full humanity. Once you are famous, some people will be interested in *everything* about you...but until then, they will read your writing because it provides them with something (probably entertainment).

Finally, about wanting to be remembered: I understand what you mean, but I feel people tend to think about themselves much more than they think about anyone else (unless they are in love) and so even those who are "remembered" don't figure much in the everyday life of those who remember them. For example, I admire and remember Einstein, but I hardly ever think about him.

Your mentioning this issue reminds me of the time I was remembered that mattered most to me. I worked for several years at a domestic violence shelter, and one evening I danced in the living room to amuse and entertain a little girl who was staying at the shelter with her mom. A couple years later, the mother and I happened to meet by accident in public. She told me that her little girl still remembered the shelter because of that "nice, pretty woman who danced for her so beautifully."

I thought to myself, what a lovely way to be remembered: a child goes to a domestic violence shelter and of all the horrible things she might have remembered about that time, instead she has a happy memory of someone dancing for her...and that someone was me.

If any poem or song I wrote benefited another person like my dancing did for that little girl, then this would be wonderful and humbling. A real privilege that some aspect of myself affected a person's private life positively. Knowing that I had affected people's lives for the better would be the best part of being famous.

The second best part of being famous would be the revenge factor: I could go up to people who dissed me in high school or dismissed my worth at other times in life, and I could say, "Ha ha!" <-- How's THAT for shallow!

I'm very sorry your friend died so needlessly and so avoidably...avoidably, if only she hadn't been addicted to alcohol. The problem is that she wasn't in control. Her addiction was.

Slappyjenkins, I feel there is nothing you could have done to stop your friend from feeding her addiction unless she was ready to stop herself...which probably requires first hitting rock bottom (losing job, family, friends, and health), if the addicted person doesn't die first.

I'm also sorry you were put in that horrible position of wanting to help your friend when staying close to her might have meant you were enabling her to drink (by making it easier for her not to face the consequences), and you would have had to suffer through watching her descent, which could be unbearable.

I'm thinking now of a depressing movie, "Leaving Las Vegas," that deals with that issue of leaving vs. staying with an alcoholic friend who lives only to drink. Another very good movie about alcoholism is "Days of Wine and Roses." I recommend this movie if you haven't seen it yet, Slappy, because it shows someone having to make that hard choice you did.

I can understand your feeling of guilt, especially since your friend said that she didn't want to lose you...but you did a beautiful thing, which was tell her your honest feelings (you couldn't be around her if she was drinking). Accepting someone's drinking is *not* going to make that person get better. Also, not being able to be around her when she was drinking didn't mean you didn't care about her.

I've very sorry that she died and that you lost your friend.

* * *

Thank you so much for your critique of my song lyrics for "Free"!

I agree with you about the second stanza not being as strong as the others. Like I mentioned in your thread, I think perhaps this is due to that stanza's lack of imagery.

Your response to my use of the metaphor "wingless" interested me. Metaphors *do* require an extra step of thought to make the connection between the words and their meaning. This is one reason that I have avoided obvious metaphors in most of my songs: I want the songs to be immediately understandable. Sometimes I think that lack of depth makes them too dull.

I did choose "stand wingless with me" to refer to my wish that the friend would no longer be high. I also picked "wingless" because "wings" is slang for heroin. ("Stand naked with me" had already been used in someone else's song. It turns out I liked "wingless" better anyway.) I tried to saturate the song with drug slang and references to appease my love of literary depth but still leave the meaning of the lyrics clear: "(great) bear (fentanyl), glass (alcohol & heroin), breathe, inhale, line (cocaine), drag, use."

Thank you again for your critique! I will get to your final post later.

__________________

slappyjenkins

OHHHHHH I did not know the slang on heroin! Of course anyone who knows that will instantly get it, I just did not have that knowledge.

Again, your suggestions and sharing little pieces of your life are so very much appreciated. You are truly honored and blessed that the little girl holds such a perfect and loving memory of you. How rewarding is it that your selfless gesture was returned to you with such special benefits!!

I love everything about this story.

And about self-publishing. I totally agree. Advertisment and having the right professional fight for your exposure is undeniably on those possible keys of success. The example of Joshua Bell is a little flawed. I'm sure this was a one-off and for a very limited time? And I agree if you don't tell anyone Joshua Bell is going to be in the subway at this time to perform then who would ever know? So it IS a perfect example of how useful advertisement is. But I've been in sales forever and we have this concept that drives the entire career of any salesman...building clientele...its the poor man's advertisement. What you do over time is promoted by word of mouth or by your excellent service you obtain repeat customers that will show loyalty to you and from that point will also go out and spread secondary yet positive publicity about you. We all have that in our day to day lives, if I told you right now I am about to put new cabinets in my kitchen there would probably be an instant reaction in your mind, 'Oh I know a guy! He's super cheap and he did our cabinets to perfection and it cost us HALF what anyone else quoted.'

Well with self-publishing it is almost the EXACT process. You can blog about your upcoming work as a form of free advertisement, but I've seen endless comments on the lack of blogs as an advertisement medium in self-published e-books. But the main concept is building your clientele over time.

Also since reading your post I have been trying in vain to find this one link that has an example of being proactive about self-publishing. I can't even remember the author's name now, but he told his story about having an agent that was carrying three of his books. He said he had given over thousands of dollars to this agent for his service, and the agent basically sat on those 3 books for 2 years and had not sold a single copy. The author gets rid of the agent and formats the books as e-books. He blogged and self-promoted, put the books up for sale at .99 cents a copy as e-books, but the books were slow going for the first few months and then all of a sudden they exploded. He claims to have made a million dollars so far off those 3 books alone. I think by now he has several works being published. I don't know why I can't remember his name but I'll look for the link and post it later.

Self-publishing is most attractive to me right now because I can post my own work at very low cost and don't have to go through an agent or publishing house which is a very expensive process. And in the case with the previous author I mentioned, he knew his agent was not enthusiastic about promoting the 3 books. The agent had other authors and was clearly putting priority on them. I don't want to deal with any of that. I don't have thousands of dollars to take on a gamble. If I keep this in my hands then I know what level of participation and urgency that I am going to put into it.

And if it doesn't work I can always get with an agent later. Certaintly not discrediting your advice at all, because your suggestion is spot on as always. But I do want to take the self-publishing route to begin with. I'll look over the link to Literary Agents, thanks so much for that! Can I ask if you are published? Or have lyrics floating around out there? If its in this thread somewhere, forgive me I'll have to keep reading through the thread.

Yeah it was sad about my friend. And her mother calls me from time to time and I feel that guilt all over again. I've even told her mother that I thought I did all I could and yet I still feel like I let her down and now she's gone. Her mother has says almost exactly what you did, 'There's nothing you could have done. She wasn't herself anymore and she could not control her addiction.'

And I know anyone reading this will think well why didn't the mother do something like force her into rehab or even have her committed to protect her from herself. Her mother DID try that...she went to the sheriff's office and to a doctor and asked for help...this was the response she got in all cases...'You cannot commit a person or force them into rehab or into any kind of program if they have not hurt themselves or hurt someone else.' So even if the person is clearly destroying themselves, if they haven't done anything to harm themselves or anyone else, then they can just sit there drunk all day and out of their minds, a ticking time bomb, until they fall down the stairs and die.

We should communicate in PM or make our own thread or communicate in my thread. I do NOT want to take away from your thread in any way. You have shared a lot of high quality material here and it deserves to be critiqued.

But thank you so much for sharing and giving.

Hey maybe we could start our own publishing company???

If you have some tens of thousands of dollars I have this big piggy bank full of coins. If I cash those out I'm sure I would have nearly a hundred dollars. And we could be partners. Right down the middle, 50/50....hehehehe....

I hope your day was wonderful!

VEGANGELICA

Happy New Year!

I haven't posted song lyrics for a vegan song in a while, so I decided to correct that deficit today by posting the lyrics for "Hands Off," which I completed in October of 2012:

* * *

"Hands Off" by Erica (yet another song inspired by MusicBanter! )

Yes, I’m a vegetarian.
My view of the world has changed.
I feel people should be kind to animals.
Now people think I’m deranged.

They tell me,
“It’s our choice and yours is yours.
You should live and let live,”
but as they bite through an animal’s corpse,
I see that’s the speech
a hypocrite would give, saying:

“Hands off our traditions.
Hands off the way we get our food.”
Yet I think, “You don’t keep
your hands to yourself.
Why should I keep my hands off you?!”

Yes, I want civil rights
to end discrimination
and all the sexist, racist, hurtful laws
some rulers like in the nations they run.

They tell me,
“It’s our choice to force compliance.
You should live and let live,”
but as they hate and segregate,
I see that’s the speech
a hypocrite would give, crying:

“Hands off our traditions.
Hands off the way we rule.”
Yet I think, “You don’t keep
your hands to yourself.
Why should I keep my hands off you?
Why should I keep my hands off you?!”

Oh, why do they dish it out, when they can’t take it?
They smash the Golden Rule, but tell you not to break it.
I’m not religious but I think I know what Jesus meant.
It’s so simple: don’t support mistreatment.
Some people get their thrills by being cruel,
but I prefer the Golden Rule.
Treat others like you want to be.
Use your hands peacefully.

Don’t pull your trigger finger.
Don’t give into the itch.
Don’t crush other souls.
Don’t steal from the poor to feel rich.
Don’t take anyone’s life.
Would you want to die by the knife?
Find your inner Gandhi.
Use your hands peacefully.
Use your hands peacefully.
Use your hands
peacefully.

* * *

^ I was reminded of my song when reading the violent lyrics by Earth Crisis for "The Wrath of Sanity," which advocates killing people to get revenge for their hurting animals.

Since killing a person violates the vegan idea of reducing harm to sentient beings, the Earth Crisis song is definitely not supporting a vegan ethical view. In contrast, "Hands Off" is about taming the desire to get one's hands on people who refuse to keep their hands off others.

I've been thinking recently about how most of my lyrics aren't "vegangelical" (someone's clever play on the word "evangelical" used to describe proselytizing Christians), because my main goal is to share the mixture of sadness and anger I feel when people use animals as food and "resources." I'm not simply trying to cause people to decide to become vegan, and I don't want to manipulate them or hurt them. Yet I also realize that if sharing my honest feelings causes people to think more about how they make food choices, I'd be cool with that.

I sometimes hesitate to share my vegan songs, because I don't want to hurt people's feelings. An example of hesitating is when I posted my lyrics for "Hide," which is one of my favorite songs I've written because it is also brutally honest: http://www.musicbanter.com/song-writ...tml#post842154

Yet I'd rather be honest about my emotions than hide them. The truth is that sometimes my frustration over a system in which people are encouraged to discount the worth that animals' lives have to the animals themselves spills out from me as a feeling of aggression toward people...but only the ones with whom I have little emotional attachment.

I know it can be uncomfortable whenever someone you care about disagrees with your choices, because I think most of us want those we love to approve of our every decision. As a vegetarian, I fear that people may not understand that I can both love them and also feel that they support an unjust and unkind practice.

I've had to try to find a way to co-exist with people who don't fully share a basic ethical viewpoint that I have. For example, when my dad was ill and having problems gaining weight, he decided to start eating chickens. Although I didn't feel it was the best choice (for his health and for ethical reasons, because it also wasn't good for the health of the chickens!), I cooked the flesh for him since he could not do so himself, although I did not buy it. While I handled the dismembered chickens (with a fork because I didn't want to touch them; I only wanted to bury them), I asked myself, would I prepare a slaughtered human if my dad requested it? Hmmm.

So my questions today are these:
(1) How do you decide whether to value some other sentient being's life enough not to support the harm and killing of that being?
(2) If being respectful of someone means letting that individual make her or his own choices, what is the respectful way to respond if that individual's choice is to use another sentient being and violate that being's right to self-determination?

* * *

Slappy, thank you belatedly for all your comments and thoughtful questions.

Yes, I think about all these questions you ask and they affect what I write.

I don't believe that gods or God exist. I cannot prove they don't exist. However, I don't believe they do, because I have seen no evidence for them (that convinces me). I also observe that even if there were gods, this wouldn't answer the question of how existence came to be. How would a god create a universe? How did the god originate? I feel that religious beliefs don't actually answer the fundamental questions they are *supposed* to be answering.

Like you, I am not an enthusiastic supporter of organized religions. I feel organized religions tend to discourage questioning while blurring the line between reality and fantasy, such that followers can no longer reason through flaws in arguments for religion. On the positive side, organized religions can help people come together as communities and do a lot of good. On the negative side, "truth-owning" by an organized religion can inspire people to do great harm, depending on the religion or sect.

I think the design you see in the universe and in life on Earth results from there being natural laws (and why they exist, we don't know) that cause matter/energy to interact in particular ways.

What you may view as design in living beings, I would view as the result of random chance (genetic variation) interacting with environmental changes. An environmental change can lead to non-random shifts in a population's traits because some individuals have preferential traits enabling them to have more children than their fellows, thus passing on those traits to a greater proportion of the next generation.

Although living beings seem very well suited to their environments, this didn't happen purely by chance and yet I see no evidence for a designer or a need to hypothesize one, either, because living beings interact with their environment in ways that promote the propagation of individuals who better fit that environment. This would account for the "design" you see. (Also note that no living being's design is "perfect," just like no car is a perfect feat of engineering. People need glasses. People's bodies lose the ability to function as they age. People end up with genetic mutations that can cause harm.)

Consider any population of living beings of the same species. By chance, those living beings will not all be genetically alike. (For example, radiation damages DNA and biological DNA repair systems aren't perfect, as we can see when people develop cancerous cells.) Now if the environment's temperature changes such that prey travels farther away and our organisms have to travel farther to find food, some of those organisms may have DNA sequences, such as for reduced body hair and increased sweating, that allow them to avoid overheating as quickly during exertion. They may then survive better and have more children compared to the furrier individuals of the same species, who may tend to die out without procreating very much because they were less able to travel far and get food. Eventually, more and more of the descendents in this population inherit the genes for less body hair. (I'm talking about humans.)

Similarly, we humans have the capacity to survive as omnivores, which means we can eat plant matter or animal matter. This probably resulted because an omnivorous diet is beneficial for animals that travel frequently into many different environments. (We humans travel, walking generation after generation from continent to continent!) If there were earlier hominids who could only eat meat (as carnivores), they would be less likely to exploit their environment as well as hominids who could eat a more diverse diet, and so the trait of omnivory would lead to better procreation. Those individuals who were able to be omnivores survived preferentially, passing on the omnivore trait to descendents.

So now we humans can eat almost any organic matter, including other humans. But does the ability to do something mean that we should?

I won't swat at you because you eat meat! I might pin you down, wrench a rib out of your mouth, and throw it across the room...but I won't swat at you!

Yes, animals in nature and human animals can be very cruel to one another as they kill for food (or turf). I wish the natural world didn't allow this and were instead a peaceful, vegetarian utopia.

However, the fact that other animals kill prey does not mean that *I* as a human with a wide range of eating choices must follow the example of predators and kill animals to survive. Humans have a great ability to choose our actions. Living without ever killing and eating a single animal is possible. I choose to follow my conscience rather than follow a lion. Choosing not to eat animals is a very natural thing to do, since I *am* part of nature, and my nature is to have and make choices.

You have known a lot of animals! Mr. Quackers the duck, a squirrel-hunting pot-bellied pig, dogs shnuffling out small prey, and cats like Chester who dropped a mouse-gift on your chest! LOL! My question for you would be whether you feel you must follow their example, or are you free to choose. (Please don't drop a mouse on my chest!!! )

I remember hearing a baby rabbit grasped in the claws of a suddenly swooping crow and carried away into the sky. The rabbit screamed a horrified, human-like cry as she or he was lifted from the grass-nibbling mother and siblings to a certainly painful death. Supporting meat-eating is well and good as long as one is not the prey. I think of how the rabbit could have lived longer and enjoyed her life for many more weeks and months and even years if her life had not been taken from her. Since I can avoid being that crow, I avoid it. I hate feeling fear and pain. I want to live long and enjoy my life. And so I wish that for other animals, too.

I realize there is no way I can stop the pain that animals inflict on each other, but as a human animal I can stop my contribution to that suffering in the natural world. Vegetarianism isn't the only way to be kind to animals, but I feel it is one good way.

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slappyjenkins

^^I had to come in and reply to this.

Vegangelica, even though our view points are fundamentally at odds on the concept of a creator, you present your side with clarity and care and logic(you know how big a fan of logic I am). I have always appreciated your responses, as they cause me to take different paths in my thinking that I would have otherwise not explored.

And you have brought awareness with your kindness to the suffering and eventually death of our livestock, grown for no other reason than to feed us. I'm not completely done with meat yet, as that is a hard dietary habit to break, but please please know that you saved at least one chicken or cow or pig as I have cut back on my meat eating quite a lot.

It IS difficult to rationalize contributing to the suffering of animals when there is no direct need to do so.

So you have made a positive change in me and allowed me to explore other alternatives, and just plain got me to thinking!

I expected no less from you.

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I was once told...True intimacy is finding out what the other person wants and needs and if it's within your power giving it to them.

VEGANGELICA

^ I love your response, slappy! Thank you!

About the concept of a creator: I've always thought that believing in a benevolent supernatural being who cares about everyone would be very comforting.

If I *could* believe in such a benevolent universe, I would, because it would probably make me feel a greater sense of optimism and peace during life and less agitation about the eventual losses and death! I've found, though, that I can't make myself believe something I don't believe.

Because I believe that human love is all that marks a death or birth, I try to compensate for the absence of a deity in my worldview by striving to be loving. For example, I wish we could create a little heaven on Earth, since that is the only existence I am assured we (chickens and humans alike) will have.

Thank you for telling me I've made a positive change in you. You encourage me to think about issues more, too.

* * *

Thinking about religious beliefs and their possible benefits reminds me of how I coped with my dad's dying process last year as an atheist: I wrote very honestly about my sad feelings about my dad and his decline. I also tried to honor and acknowledge my dad's life and the losses he was experiencing by showing him I cared about him, and by talking openly with him about his regrets, accomplishments, hopes, and fears.

My dad was an atheist like I am and believed when life is over, it is over. He fought very hard to stay alive!

I wrote the song "Mayday" for my dad in February 2012. At the time, I debated whether or not to give him the lyrics. I didn't want to upset my dad by describing what I saw in his future. Yet I also wanted to be honest with him about my concerns.

After some internal debate, I decided to share the lyrics with my dad because my desire to be honest won out over my fear of upsetting him. I'm glad I did. I remember watching him read the lyrics at his office chair in February. He smiled a little as he repeated the words, "present descent." I think he liked the rhyming!

Later that month, I played part of the violin part for him, hoping he could tell me what chords I was using, because I know only minimal music theory while he knew everything! I was glad I at least got to play part of the violin part for him, because I didn't finish the recording of the whole song in time for him to hear it.

* * *

“Mayday” by Erica

Calm before the storm,
then squall, and child, you’re borne
by life out to sea,
no control, you’re spiralling,
your happy past
no guarantee it would last.
Can’t hold fast.

You call emergency.
Your capsized quality
of life is sinking,
your options shrinking
as memories and pleasures cease
to release you and bring relief
from your present descent.

Once I hoped when it’s time to die
the misery would make me cry in anguish,
for I wished to know
when death arrives, I’d want to go.
Oh foolish desire to suffer and tire.

(Cadenza)

You struggle in the waves.
Now all that I can say is
I’m sorry you have to live through this,
I’m sorry we’re both helpless this Mayday
when no worship will save you
and no spring will renew health and youth
as you’re drowning

I wish you calm, not this frustration,
I wish you ease, no more aggravation,
I wish you love
as your culmination.

* * *

Finally, in honor of my dad, I'll post his favorite piece of music that he enjoyed hearing in the last 6 months of his life: Bach, The Well Tempered Clavier, Book II, Prelude No.11 in F Major BWV880.

My dad felt this song sounded beautifully peaceful, like water trickling downstream.

After my dad could no longer use the computer, I used to play his iPod through its speakers so that he and I could enjoy his favorite Bach music while walking around the house together to get exercise. Sometimes my dad would use the walker, but he hated it because stooping hurt his back, and so sometimes to help him stand up straighter I would offer my shoulders. My dad would hold onto my shoulders with his hands and walk slowly behind me as we made circles through the house...kitchen to living room to dining room to kitchen.

Now hearing Bach music like this song reminds me of all the slow fall days and evenings my dad and I spent together as he gradually lost the ability to walk around the block, and then walk down the alley, and then stand, and then finally, on his final night and day, get out of bed.

He had to suffer many slow losses and excruciating pain along the way. Along with the physical pain, it distressed my dad greatly that his cognitive abilities were dwindling due to chemotherapy, since he had always had great pride in his mental capabilities.

During the last two hours of my dad's life, although he was unconscious as best we could tell, I put his earphones on his ears so that he could listen to Bach, as was his routine before going to sleep in the evenings.

After he died, I checked to see how far he would have gotten in the music, had he heard it. He died before getting to his favorite piece. Such is life. But while my dad was alive, he enjoyed this music very much, and for that I am thankful:


J.S.Bach - The Well Tempered Clavier: Book II: Prelude and Fugue No.11 in F Major - S. Richter - YouTube

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ribbons

For a well-loved father and his wonderful, caring, brave daughter who has a beautiful soul. I am very sorry, Erica.

VEGANGELICA

Thanks, ((Liz)). I know you aren't around here much recently and so thank you for remembering and following up on our conversations about my dad to tell me you were thinking of me. The song you shared made me smile because my dad liked that one. I remember a distinct conversation he and I had about it.

I hope you are well!!! !!! !!! !!!

Liz, I wanted you to know that early last year I bought a Telecaster because I hoped and planned to use it for the Hearth song to surprise you! I bought it used on eBay from a nice grandpa in Minnesota who had fallen in love with the guitar in a shop in 2006 but decided to part with it to use the money for another purpose. I still have happy memories of planning and writing that song for you, and so thank you for being you and therefore inspiring it. I loved surprising you!!! (http://www.musicbanter.com/song-writ...ml#post1154963)

I just haven't recorded much music this last year and I fear I might not get to recording the song for you for some time. Yet I thought you'd like to know that you inspired me to purchase a Telecaster because I had wanted to make that jangly sound you and I both like. I still think about your dream guitar and hope you get her/him/it someday.

Please don't be a stranger, Liz, but whatever you do, I hope you continue to be happy and fulfilled wherever you are. All my best to you, always.

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