Wysh

For nearly 25 years I've been composing lyrics with heavy social and political themes. I attempt to illustrate many of the ironies we seemingly take for granted and accept in our daily lives. However, do you think there's a fine line with addressing these issues that can get blurred with complaining about them? On one hand it can be argued that pointing out these issues (such as corporate greed, political lies, etc) can be healthy so long as potential solutions are proposed, but at what point do lyrics become tedious rather than informative?

VEGANGELICA

I think that whether informative songs with social and political themes will be viewed as tedious and complaining depends on how subtle the lyrics are...and on the listener, of course.

The impression I get is that most people like music primarily because of its sound and the emotional states it puts them in, and they don't listen to music to be informed. I think they feel informative lyrics are dry or preachy and they don't want music telling them what to think or do. One person on MusicBanter mentioned to me once that if he wanted to learn about a topic, he'd read a pamphlet rather than listen to a song.

However, if the message of corporate greed or lies etc. is subtle and is embedded in captivating music, then people may listen. The sound of the song may draw them in and then cause them to think about the content, which, if substantive, may make them appreciate the song more.

Wysh, since you like and create lyrics with heavy social and political themes, you may like this thread: http://www.musicbanter.com/general-m...tml#post907260

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Wysh

I appreciate that thoughtful and insightful view. I wouldn't consider myself an activist by any means. I'd never try to tell someone what to think or how to live. I believe the ability to create music is a precious gift and shouldn't be used as a vehicle to preach one's personal opinions.

The lyrics I compose deal more with the rampant absurdities we all passively accept. I guess a good way to describe it would be "dark satire". I'm looking for constructive opinions on limitations. My question is, when does satire cross the bridge to chronic complaining?

I'd never use my music as a vehicle to inform anyone of anything, primarily because we all have different opinions, beliefs, and ideas. My lyrics are more of a general "state of affairs". But even satire can border on offending some. Wherein lies the balance?

VEGANGELICA

Can one make a satiric song without the song having a point of view, an opinion?

I think satire will sound like complaining to anyone who disagrees with the opinion that underlies the satire. Satire uses sarcasm (based on some cruelty) and humor (which can express affection for the listener) to criticize the state of affairs. So if a song uses satire, it IS promoting an opinion. I don't think there is a way to prevent a satiric song from professing an opinion, because satire is based on a strong opinion.

I'm curious, Wysh, that you don't desire to use your music "as a vehicle to inform anyone of anything, primarily because we all have different opinions, beliefs, and ideas," because what content is left in a song that tries to avoid offending anyone due to listeners having different opinions, beliefs, and ideas?

Even Katy Perry's songs...epitome of music fluff (and such fun!)...offend some people, because she *did* kiss a girl, after all. Other people dislike her songs because they *are* so non-offensive and are designed (I assume) to be accepted by the masses and by general opinion.

I'm curious about your philosophy about music, because mine is the exact opposite: I like songs that directly confront people and show the musician's disagreement with other people's viewpoints! If a song isn't direct, it feels sneaky to me, and I prefer bold to sneaky and subtle. I very much want music to show the musician's personal opinions.

Finally, a two part answer to your question about when does satire become offensive and complaining:

(1) I think that if every song someone creates is oozing satire, then listeners (even those who like satire) may start to get a negative vibe from the music and may not gravitate toward it because listening to the music will feel like listening to complaint after complaint.

Perhaps if a musician creates some songs based on dark satire interspersed among "feel good" songs, then people will view the lesser number of satirical songs as legitimate and constructive critiques about society. If *every* song a person writes involves satire, then listeners may start to dismiss the musician as a "complainer," or someone who complains a lot because she enjoys complaining. Unless the music is punk, because punk songs are supposed to be filled with complaints!

(2) I think that if a satiric song is very humorous, then people will be more likely to enjoy it and not feel offended. If a satiric song *sounds* critical, then people's hackles will rise.

What do you think of Malvina Reynolds' "Little Boxes" song? That's a strong commentary about society. I think of the song whenever I see the suburbs. Do you think the satire is too heavy and thus makes the song offensive? It doesn't *tell* people what to do, but I would call this an "activist" song because its statement of a strong opinion encourages people to understand that viewpoint and not let themselves become one of the little boxes:

Malvina Reynolds - "Little Boxes" (1962)

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Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

The problem with social and political lyrics is the problem with lyrics in general. When you get to into them, you tend to forget to put effort in he actual melodies, which should take front seat.

If the melodies are good, lyrics can be whatever you want.

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Janszoon

I agree with this 100%. I definitely love me some quality lyrics but not generally at the expense of the music. And I'd take what you said a step further as well: it doesn't have to be about the melody either, it just has to be about the music overall.

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Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

True. Then again, I always see melody as meaning nothing more than the combination of melodies(even if they're traditionally amelodic) as the sounds means to make the song come off properly.

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Electrocuted

They should both go together melody and lyrics? Unless it's peotry or Instrumental music

nowhereusa

Good political songs show more than they tell. Most good writing, song writing included, is greatly effected by the balance between descriptions and expositions. I know that not everyone listens to music for the lyrics, but I think, on a subconscious level, most people would still rather arrive at a conclusion themselves than be told the conclusion outright. Songwriters like Bob Dylan show you what is wrong with the world and let you decide how to fix it. Song writers like Zach de la Rocha tell you both what is wrong and how to fix it. I guess it comes down to personal preference. I like both de la Roch and Dylan, but de la Rocha comes off as preachy and therefore might turn people off.