Q from Dancer

Craigs · 10-02-2014, 06:13 AM

Hi,

I've been ballroom dancing off and on for years, never very well. But, I'm training my ear, so I can be decent and, hopefully, expand my repertoire to different types of dance. I'm using all types of music for my ear training. I have a question.

Frequently, when a bar begins, it seems that, if I've got the 1 correct, vocals start just before the 1. Am I on the right track (No pun intended, but I'll take it!)? Would you folks say a little about the theory behind writing like that?

All help is appreciated!

Craigs · 10-03-2014, 07:18 AM

Should I rephrase this to make more sense? Any help would help; I need to understand music, so even if the answer isn't perfectly correct, we're still talking about music, which helps me.

VEGANGELICA · 10-05-2014, 12:17 AM

Could you give an example of a song where you've noticed the vocal entrances often occur slightly before the first beat in the measure?

I'm wondering if perhaps upbeat music may tend to encourage vocalists to enter slightly before the beat to increase the sense of excitement.

I've actually noticed the exact opposite as you about vocal entrances: often soloists in slower songs tend to delay their entrances, which I believe is to create a greater sense of suspense and thus a stronger yearning emotion at that moment in the song.

Examples of songs where there are frequent delayed vocal entrances are these two cover songs by female soloists:

"Can't Help Falling In Love" (Cover) - Ingrid Michaelson
Her entrances often occur just *after* the beat although a few occur before the beat, too.

Across the Universe (Musical) - "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" (Cover) - T.V. Carpio
Her vocal delays with respect to the beat are especially apparent around 0:38 and 1:00 minutes into the song and at the entrance right after 2:00 minutes.

Craigs · 10-05-2014, 09:10 AM

Thank you!

I can certainly give an example of what I think is the vocals entering early! I'll post one after my next "ear training" session, which will be a little later.

For now, I'm going to work with your examples for a little bit. I found sheet music to the Michaelson song, but I don't know if it's correct, and the site disallows posting links before 15 posts. (Otherwise, I'd post the link and ask if it's correct.) Do you have a link to the sheet music? First page is plenty to get me going.

eddywalda · 10-08-2014, 02:42 AM

So, I've been a percussionist for about 8 years, I've played piano for about 5, I write music, and I recently have joined a ballroom dance team and this is what I've learned:

Generally in music you will dance to, the strongest (read "accented") beat of the bar is going to be 1. If you're dancing a waltz, (which is counted 1,2,3) this is the case. You can feel that in your steps as well, (down, up, up, down, up, up) It is key you can recognize where beat 1 is regardless of any vocal performer. If you can find beat 1, the rest will line up.

As a singer, I know that vocalists can do some pretty strange stuff. Because using the voice is such a natural thing, you end up with rhythms you couldn't recreate on an instrument if you tried. They will never consistently start before the beat, on the beat, or after the beat.

As I said earlier, if you can find beat 1. Then you can determine for yourself if they are starting before, on or after.

You can use a little bit of pop music theory to your advantage here. Often times if a song is counted in 4 beats, (i.e. 1,2,3,4) and there is a drum beat going on, the snare drum will most likely be on beats 2 and 4 (other wise known as the off beats.) So you now you're left with picking between two beats to be 1 instead of 4. Feel for which beat each bar is leading to, and that will be beat 1.

The key here, like any other application of music is to listen. Listen, listen listen! Especially to the music of the dances you want to learn. Once you have the song in your ear, then you can find sheet music to decide if you're correct or not. But trust me, you are better off finding beat one through the "background" music instead of the vocalist.

I hope this helps!

Craigs · 10-09-2014, 05:04 AM

It helps a lot; thank you! I've looked at some sheet music, including that above, and it seemed that the vocalists were doing something that wasn't on the sheet. I've gotten excellent with counting the beats from percussion except when the vocals' beat overwhelms (relative to my perspective) the percussion or it goes over 160bpm. (I think salsa is not in my future.) But, that the vocalists kind of do their own thing explains why the sheet doesn't always match, and knowing that is a big deal; it was holding me back.

On simple music, I'm also developing my measure count, e.g., 32345678, 42345678.

Work's crazy this week, so I had to take a break from music, which is why I haven't posted my example.

Craigs · 10-18-2014, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

I'm wondering if perhaps upbeat music may tend to encourage vocalists to enter slightly before the beat to increase the sense of excitement.

I've actually noticed the exact opposite as you about vocal entrances: often soloists in slower songs tend to delay their entrances, which I believe is to create a greater sense of suspense and thus a stronger yearning emotion at that moment in the song.

That's exactly what was happening! Since I've been listening to all sorts of music, I hadn't noticed that that was a dividing line.

Thank you for your help!!!

Regarding the statement about losing the beat at 160bpm or so: that's getting much better too

10-02-2014, 06:13 AM	#1 (permalink)
Craigs Groupie Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 5	Q from Dancer Hi, I've been ballroom dancing off and on for years, never very well. But, I'm training my ear, so I can be decent and, hopefully, expand my repertoire to different types of dance. I'm using all types of music for my ear training. I have a question. Frequently, when a bar begins, it seems that, if I've got the 1 correct, vocals start just before the 1. Am I on the right track (No pun intended, but I'll take it!)? Would you folks say a little about the theory behind writing like that? All help is appreciated!

10-05-2014, 09:10 AM	#4 (permalink)
Craigs Groupie Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 5	Thank you! I can certainly give an example of what I think is the vocals entering early! I'll post one after my next "ear training" session, which will be a little later. For now, I'm going to work with your examples for a little bit. I found sheet music to the Michaelson song, but I don't know if it's correct, and the site disallows posting links before 15 posts. (Otherwise, I'd post the link and ask if it's correct.) Do you have a link to the sheet music? First page is plenty to get me going. Last edited by Craigs; 10-05-2014 at 09:29 AM.

10-08-2014, 02:42 AM	#5 (permalink)
eddywalda Groupie Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Cambridge MA Posts: 2	Vocals and Timing So, I've been a percussionist for about 8 years, I've played piano for about 5, I write music, and I recently have joined a ballroom dance team and this is what I've learned: Generally in music you will dance to, the strongest (read "accented") beat of the bar is going to be 1. If you're dancing a waltz, (which is counted 1,2,3) this is the case. You can feel that in your steps as well, (down, up, up, down, up, up) It is key you can recognize where beat 1 is regardless of any vocal performer. If you can find beat 1, the rest will line up. As a singer, I know that vocalists can do some pretty strange stuff. Because using the voice is such a natural thing, you end up with rhythms you couldn't recreate on an instrument if you tried. They will never consistently start before the beat, on the beat, or after the beat. As I said earlier, if you can find beat 1. Then you can determine for yourself if they are starting before, on or after. You can use a little bit of pop music theory to your advantage here. Often times if a song is counted in 4 beats, (i.e. 1,2,3,4) and there is a drum beat going on, the snare drum will most likely be on beats 2 and 4 (other wise known as the off beats.) So you now you're left with picking between two beats to be 1 instead of 4. Feel for which beat each bar is leading to, and that will be beat 1. The key here, like any other application of music is to listen. Listen, listen listen! Especially to the music of the dances you want to learn. Once you have the song in your ear, then you can find sheet music to decide if you're correct or not. But trust me, you are better off finding beat one through the "background" music instead of the vocalist. I hope this helps!

10-03-2014, 07:18 AM	#2 (permalink)
Craigs Groupie Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 5	Should I rephrase this to make more sense? Any help would help; I need to understand music, so even if the answer isn't perfectly correct, we're still talking about music, which helps me.

10-09-2014, 05:04 AM	#6 (permalink)
Craigs Groupie Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 5	It helps a lot; thank you! I've looked at some sheet music, including that above, and it seemed that the vocalists were doing something that wasn't on the sheet. I've gotten excellent with counting the beats from percussion except when the vocals' beat overwhelms (relative to my perspective) the percussion or it goes over 160bpm. (I think salsa is not in my future.) But, that the vocalists kind of do their own thing explains why the sheet doesn't always match, and knowing that is a big deal; it was holding me back. On simple music, I'm also developing my measure count, e.g., 32345678, 42345678. Work's crazy this week, so I had to take a break from music, which is why I haven't posted my example.