Motown vs Stax
 

The two empires of R&B music.

So, which do you think produced the most great music overall?

Let's see.

Motown:
The Temptations
Marvin Gaye
Stevie Wonder
Diana Ross & The Supremes
Smokey Robinson & The Miracles
The Four Tops
Martha & The Vendettas
Jackson 5
Gladys Knight & The Pips


Stax:
Otis Redding
Sam and Dave
Rufus Thomas
Isaac Hayes
Wilson Pickett
Albert King
The Staple Singers
Booker T & The MGs

I live close to Memphis so you might think I'm partial to Stax. But I just gotta go with Motown.

That's such a tough one to call. Two completely different flavors of soul. Ultimately I would go with Stax. They were committed to the cause of racial integration in the music industry, They didn't hide Booker T and the MGs under the carpet the way that Motown did with the Funk Brothers for so long and their core sound was so much more distinctive. That abrasive B3 organ sound that was Booker T's signature still sounds amazing.
Admittedly there's probably more Motown Records that I would prefer to listen to than Stax, but based on business integrity and overall creativity Stax is the hands down winner.

Stax brings the funk. Motowns alright, but just a little too polished.

Stax

Yeah that's it in a nutshell. You gotta love the funk brothers though. The greatest band that, for a long time, no one knew existed.

[QUOTE=boo boo;698098]
Martha & The Vandettas
QUOTE]



Martha and the Vendettas would be a cool band name.

Very tough choice.
I don't think I can choose between the two. The Motown style puts me off mainly because of it's prevalence over other soul labels and it's conveyor belt approach to churning out mainstream pop soul doesn't suit my personal tastes.
It's subsidiary labels are far more attractive to me with their more, or should I say less, sugar sweet sound. (Martha & the Vendetta's sound like the act they should have been boo boo.)
Even with that, there's no denying the quality of The Funk Brothers with their world class musicians, including the greatest bass player that ever lived in James Jamerson.
It's songwriters were easily the best, but controlled far too much by Gordy.
asshat's comment of too polished is spot on...add too packaged as well.
And then there's Stax with Booker T & The MGs...incomparable.

If the Chess label was an option here that'd get my vote, but it isn't, so I'm sitting on the fence.

...giving marvin ***e some credit...he managed to salvage some truly cheesy songs if done by other people--I'm thinkin of "ain't no mountain high enough" or sexual healing in particular.

Motown had some greats, thats for sure, but I too feel that Stax has the edge. I find Stax to be a little less smiley and a little more gritty and I like that about them.

I went with Motown, I don't think they overproduced, the horns and strings really did suit a lot of their songs, and they had many many great session musicians including James Jamerson, the greatest rock bassist of all time.

Overall, Motown had more artists that I'm into. Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Temptations, Jackson 5.

Otis Redding and Booker T & The MGs are great. But I've never been too big on Isaac Hayes and Rufus Thomas, even though they're very much considered royalty down here in Memphis territory.

I like that each had their own unique approach, Stax's was raw and gritty, Motown's was pomp and razzle dazzle.

Knowing me, it's no surprise that I prefer the latter.

I thought about this for ten minutes, and I just can't make up my mind.

Both are literally awesome at the exact same levels, though Otis Redding very nearly seals it for Stax.

Booker T & The MG's are so damn good and have that raw edge that I prefer. Stax for me but only just. I nearly bought a Stax label T shirt on Saturday too. Spooky.

So many good acts on both labels. You've got Gladys Knight & the Pips, Stevie Wonder, the Elgins, the Supremes, the Commodores and of course Marv on Motown, but on the other hand I'm a massive fan of Sam & Dave, Wilson Pickett, Isaac Hayes, Otis Redding and Booker T too.

More songs that I hate have come out on Motown though, so Stax edges it.

Such a good response, much better then what i tried to write in response.

I'm partial to Otis and Wilson personally so that pushes me to agree with you Satch

I'll take the easy way out work blue and say: Asking Stax or motown is like saying would you like oral on every Tuesday or Wednesday?


Can't I have both?

Yes, I'd like both too, as well as Atlantic Records for Dessert so that I might enjoy some Aretha Franklin Flambe.

Here's something I want to share. It's a perfect example of the inner workings of Motown.
Not just the Funk Brothers but, the whole package.
The musicianship is simply breathtaking. For me this is what Motown were all about.
Fascinating insight (the music, not the opening dialogue);



Edit: You'll have to double click to see/hear the vid.

I know the difference between motown and stax now. Motown has the songs I pretend not to enjoy with every fibre of my being:

Not a convincing argument

Stax by a mile! The records sound better, they're less trebly because they didn't go down the the 'lets mix these records for awful radio speakers' route. You can actually hear Mr 'Duck' Dunn properly. Also Steve Cropper is the man, and Motown never had Otis Redding.

Also, where would the Boss be without stax?

http://www.musicbanter.com/members/g...soulsville.jpg don't think it's it's fair to compare two outstanding record labels, there's some tunes on motown i like & dislike, same with stax, so here's the answer.

Im with mr. goth glam on this. Its far too hard to call, both made amazing music. I dont think I'll vote this one.

i dont think you can put issac in the 'stax' category.... for me its mainly weak soul with no drive.... the singers are good admittedly but still its not real for me....

u cant say dock of the bay has anywhere near the lyrical content of whats going on or living for the city etc....

issac was controlled and forced to obey throughout his time at stax.... it wasnt until he released hot buttered soul and shaft ost etc that he realised he was the label lol

im really annoyed that stax are winning this poll!

apart from the wilson/booker t/issac stuff i think stax is a really weak label to be honest.... i think the best stax would have ended up at atlantic anyway! i agree with their business ethics but they did go bankrupt as a result, and again treated ike like sh!t

the only REAL talent on stax for me are the female singers like Carla Thomas / Wendy Rene / Deanie Parker etc.. and theyre not even mentioned here!

cant believe you lot would put sam and dave over stevie wonder lol thats shameful !

i agree with right track (again).... add Checker/Chess to the poll and ill vote for that!!




:)

Hard to get down on Marvin ***e, James Jamerson, Supremes, Stevie Wonder, etc. Motown was definitely more prolific, but, as James Brown himself said, they turned down the bass and adjusted the sound more for mass consumption.

I'm a Stax guy. Love that raw sound. Sad to hear Duck Dunn etc say in the Stax movie that the black people drove out the white people, but still, it started out with a mix and thats partly what made it special.

How do you choose, really?

:band:

I voted Stax.

Motown had some true visionaries, including Marvin and Stevie (Before the Soft Pop that many only know him for now...), and the Soul of it's best moments has a serious Cool. Still, despite having music that moved and singers that were powerful, there was still a bit of a showbiz that crept in by the Late 60's that killed off most of it's effect for me. No dismissing how Gordy ran things, though, although the move to LA in '72 seriously turned things for the worse despite having some major highlights.

Stax had a Soul that really hit, and Booker T and the MGs were among the first to break barriers while being stars and not just a backing band while Otis Redding and Sam and Dave had an intense style. As for the Post-Atlantic days, there's plenty of classics with Issac Hayes beyond "Shaft" that make him stand out as a visionary as well as many fine tracks by The Staple Singers, Johnny Taylor, and The Bar-Kays that stand out as solid examples of Soul and Funk that move.

Sadly, however, Stax as a business was for the most part in tough waters after their fateful parting with Atlantic as a Distributor who wound up with their Pre-1968 masters. Still, even with the failures which later marked their original demise by the Mid-70's, it had some good moments while trying to broaden the range of music it presented, even if some of it went little heard in it's day due to the obvious distribution problems. With the intense feelings running in Memphis after the assassination of Dr. King and the (In retrospect, understandable) defecting of some of it's major talent at the time (Booker went to LA, for example), the Soul that it was best with only grew in boldness, and it's Wattstax festival was both a good thought-provoking event and a fine promotional powerhouse for the label (that was, of course, until trouble struck with the Distribution deal with CBS shortly after the the finalization of the deal, setting off the rest of the mess that wound up in a sad place by '75).

With it's releases of Soul, Funk, and Gospel, Stax stayed very close to it's fanbase even if times were troubled on the business side and some of the releases trying too hard to reach the market CBS was more comfortable distributing to (Just thinking of some of their albums of 74/75 can make a true fan cry...Mike Douglas? How about Lina Zavaroni? Or, get this, Morton Downey, Jr.?). Forgetting all of the side steps that never could have worked, their final days at least introduced Richard Pryor to the Comedy album market and had a few standout tracks like Shirley Brown's "Woman to Woman," among many great highlights, many that were not promoted well the first time around, but still remain easy to find in the digital age to remind how the Soul and Funk of Stax holds up very well.

Have to go with Stax, motown was good, but Stax brought the funky soul of the 70's.

The Funk Brothers.

I love both. It's a tie.

Both labels are great but I'd give the edge to Motown.

The Temptations > Otis Redding
Marvin Gaye > Sam and Dave
Stevie Wonder > Rufus Thomas
Diana Ross & The Supremes < Isaac Hayes
Smokey Robinson & The Miracles > Wilson Pickett
The Four Tops < Albert King
Martha & The Vendellas < The Staple Singers
Jackson 5 < Booker T & The MGs
Gladys Knight & The Pips < Johnnie Taylor

Had to add Johnnie Taylor to the list to even the two sides. So with a score of Motown 4 - Stax 4, Its a tie.

I'm from Detroit and the influence of Motown here is so tremendous. I learned how to be a recording engineer from Bob Dennis who mastered everything Motown put out from '64-'68 and who actually ran Hitsville before he split to go to Hotwax which was HDH's label. And that's the other thing about Motown were the spin-offs they indirectly created.

Stax was certainly very good. I listened to enough of their records. But I have to say in terms of legacy that Motown wins hands down. The changes they brought to the industry are indelible.

But let's also not forget the Philly sound of Gamble & Huff.

Wow! Thats some interesting info there Lord Larehip!

Thats certainly one I'm going to check out. Ive always been a fan of Philly R&B/Soul.

Hope you going to be a permanent member here at MB? Welcome my friend and thanks for the tip. :)

In the soul heyday, Detroiters loved all the soul out there not just the Detroit stuff. I remember when "Expressway to Your Heart" came out. That was like the anthem of Detroit. You heard it everywhere you went. And "Some Kind of Wonderful" by the Soul Brother 6 was hugely popular here which is why Grand Funk covered it but I believe SB6 was from New York or New Jersey. James Brown was a virtual god in Detroit and he was from Georgia. "Funky Broadway" was so popular in Detroit that there was a clothing store right in the middle of downtown called Funky Broadway. Wilson was a Detroit cat but that was on Stax Records if I remember correctly. I remember "Keep the Ball Rollin'" by Jay & the Techniques was very popular here but they were from Allentown, PA, I believe. "I'm Your Puppet" by James & Bobby Purify was very popular here. In fact, I think Marvin Gaye covered it (and the song was written by two white guys). "Slippin' Into Darkness" by War was another enormously popular song in Detroit.

And many Motown artists recorded with Gamble & Huff or recorded songs that were written by G&H's stable of songwriters. I think G&H were also responsible for Archie Bell & the Drells and "Tighten Up" was so popular in Detroit you'd have thought it was recorded here.

Yeah, we loved out soul here. I miss those old soul days. I remember sitting on a garbage can in an alley behind my aunt's house listening to a group of bruthas harmonizing a capella doing "Ooh, Baby, Baby" on the corner.

I guess those days are gone forever.

Here's one my mentor, Bob Dennis, mastered for Hotwax:


The Flaming Ember - Mind, Body, and Soul - 45 rpm - YouTube

Well, I can feel ya when you say the good old days are behind us. But your hand on hand experiences are a little more extravagant than mine I have to say. Its good to see someone quote on their own personal experiences and their own understanding of the genealogy of any particular genre and/or era of music history. Living the experiences at that particular time when a certain genre, artist, or band, gives one a much more better understanding because they lived during that time when it was popular.

The 70s was my personal "Golden Era" of music. I was always into The Brothers Johnson, Parliament/Funkadelic, The Isley Brothers, LTD, AWB, Rick James, Head East, Earth, Wind, & Fire, and so on if I gave it more thought.

You just don't hear music like that anymore, I mean...that music just made you feel good, it was uplifting music that resonated a good vibe...

Parliament and the Isleys were part of Detroit scene. The Isleys were at Motown for a bit and recorded "This Ol' Heart of Mine" here--another HDH number. Parliament was headed by George Clinton and recorded "I Wanna Testify" in Detroit. In fact, George recorded quite a lot at The Disc which houses the Recording Institute of Detroit which I attended. I saw him around the studio quite a lot. Bob Dennis runs the school.

That building used to be the old GM studio. It's not in Detroit proper, it's in Eastpointe (formerly East Detroit) on 9 Mile near Gratiot. GM studio put out Dennis Coffey's "Scorpio" (he was one of the Funk Bros and still lives around here and still records--real nice guy). GM also put out "It's So Nice to Be With You" by Gallery who were a Detroit-area band. They put out "Hlep for My Waiting" by the Dorians who were from Ontario but came to East Detroit to record it (Southeast Michigan has very close ties to Canada. In fact Detroit is the only border city in the US that is NORTH of Canada)

GM also had a sister label called Bump Shop Records because the GM studio was attached to a bump shop called Motor City Collision. Amazingly, even though the GM facility is long gone and the Disc/RID has been there for many years, that bump shop is still there and still operating. My old double bass instructor used to record at GM quite a lot. He's also recorded with a lot of Motown people like Martha Reeves and the late Larry Nozero (whose sax is all over Motown recordings like "What's Going On"). GM, by the way, has nothing to do with General Motors. It was a very small label that usually picked the artists that couldn't get signed to Motown or were dropped from the label.

But Ohio had a couple of dynamite soul acts--the Ohio Players and Bootsy (he was from Cincinnati, right?). I grew up part of my life in Cincinnati because my grandparents lived there. But I love the Ohio Players and Bootsy. Even today, if I'm playing out somewhere and I dash off the opening guitar chords to "Sweet Sticky Thing" the older black people in the audience will sigh nostalgically. And Bootsy hooked up with George Clinton after his gig with James Brown was over and he spent A LOT of time up here.

I have a buddy with a few tapes of live P-Funk shows that he transferred over to DVD. That was some crazy ****!

You mentioned This Ol' Heart Of Mine, I really liked Wild Cherry's version of that one a lot. And Sweet Sticky Thing is one of my favorite by The Ohio Players, Its sad "Shug" passed away just this last year I believe. Their album Honey brings back so many memories.

You know, have you ever considered writing a book concerning the Detroit R&B/Soul/Funk scene? Thats really quite amazing within itself having the opportunity just to be around some of the artist you have mentioned.

Of course I am a big admirer of James Jamerson and the Funk Brothers. What are some of your views concerning, when Berry Gordy moved Motown to California (if I'm correct?) Ive heard, or actually read it somewhere, that he left The Funk Brothers behind in Detroit. Is there any truth to that story? Or any inside information you can add to it?

Its really nice conversing with you Brother, you should think about writing a book with the knowledge you have, if you haven't already. :)

I will be sending you a PM.

There have been quite a number of books on the Detroit soul/rock/jazz scene. I really have nothing new to add to it. Detroit was an incredible musical Mecca for decades. Going from the Paradise Valley days to the Fortune Records days to Motown to the founding of metal and punk with the advent of the MC5 and the Stooges.

But it all fell apart after the riots of '67. Not right away but it began a gradual decline that nothing has been able to stop. As for Gordy moving Motown to LA, that happened around '71. I can't really blame him. The writing was on the wall and he knew it. Bob Dennis left Motown in part because he knew by '68 that Motown was pulling up stakes and he didn't want to go to LA. He still lives here in the Detroit area. Martha Reeves still lives here because I saw her at a record store last year. Barrett Strong still lives here and he wrote all those Temptation songs--"Just My Imagination" "Ball of Confusion" "Cloud 9" "Psychedelic Shack" etc. He was the cousin of Nolan Strong who was lead singer of Nolan Strong & the Diablos who recorded for Fortune Records--one of the greatest doo-wop groups EVER. John Lee Hooker recorded for Fortune as did Flaming Ember before they moved to Hot Wax. So did Skeeter Davis, the country singer, her very first records were on Fortune.

Yeah the Funk Bros got left behind but I don't think most of them wanted to go to LA. Dennis Coffey sure didn't. Some criticize Gordy's move but I think it was one of necessity. He'd have had to move sooner or later. Detroit is in SERIOUS decline today. It's so bad I don't know how they are going to get out of it. But some parts of it are actually very nice. But huge swaths are now deserted--like a nuclear bomb hit it or something. Eerie.

Nolan Strong & the Diablos from 1954. "The Wind" is considered to be the most beautiful doo-wop ever written:


Nolan Strong and The Diablos "The Wind" - 1954 Fortune Records - YouTube

I used to live in Cleveland, and its the same way with that particular northeastern city as well. Especially the inner city area, and the much more nicer and a lot safer suburb areas (20 to 30 miles out) are so expensive to live its ridiculous. You really hate to see the deterioration of a major city like that, once you have fallen in love with it.

There's so few cops in Detroit that unless you have a major emergency, no one will answer your call. So crime is pretty rampant. I went to a bar in Detroit not long to see Rodriguez--you know--Sugarman, the guy whose records were huge in South Africa and he never even knew it and they all thought he was dead but someone realized he was living in Detroit. Well, he still lives here, I can't see him moving anywhere else. But, anyway. I went to see Rodriguez perform and people are just sitting there smoking pot and the parking lot is jammed with people passing joints around. No cops, no worries and the bar owners say nothing because it wouldn't do any good and at least they have business. Pot is legal in Detroit anyway but only for personal in the home not in public places but people smoke it openly everywhere now because there are no cops. It's kind of cool because Detroit could become another San Francisco in the 60s--a counterculture area. I would think that would be the probable outcome because somebody has to move into all those deserted houses.

Bassist - Sam Marshall
 

If you would, give this band a listen and give me your advise concerning the bass player, Sam Marshal?

They are a band out of Texas Ive recently been following. I really look for a major artist eventually hearing and picking this guy up. You almost have to hear and see him play live before you can fully appreciate and admire his talent. His dynamics and ability is impeccable. He has funk, speed with accuracy...Geez. I didn't pick the bass up for over a month after seeing him play.

They have a new album soon to be released.

Let me know what you think?

Yes, he's very good! What I call "workhorse bass"--the other instruments are riding on his back. That's how bass playing should be. I hate lazy bass playing. This fellow builds a bridge with his notes and the other instruments cross over on it. Good stuff. I've played with some superb bassists. One of my old instructors plays beautiful bossa nova on a 6-string bass--both guitar and bass lines at once. The harmonies are beautiful with crystal clear chords. He's a one-man band with that thing. I heard another guy playing awesome lead guitar licks with super fast runs full of hammer-ons and string bending and then realized with a shock that he was playing a 6-string bass way up the neck. Some guys have all the talent. Thanks for the clips!