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dac 05-24-2009 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan (Post 665090)
I didn't mention Gasol because he's the only one who's been consistently good in the playoffs, it's just he hasn't gotten the ball enough.
Pippen may not have been dominant per se, but who on the Cavs roster is comparable? Plus he was an absolute lockdown defender.

The way I see it is this: You can cite all the history you want, but Jordan didn't win a championship until his supporting cast raised their level of play, and he didn't have to be as dominant. Sure, down the stretch he always had the ball in his hands and was the unquestioned leader on the court, but compare his PER from before he won his first title and during his two three year runs. Bottom line is that this Cavs team is not only far less talented than the Lakers, but they matchup poorly. Terribly in fact. I think they have a good shot because of Lebron and because of the way the Lakers are playing, but if the Lakers elevate their to any level beyond what they're doing now, expect it to be over in 6.

I think the Lakers, along with the Magic, match up favorably against the Cavs, but both teams are incredibly inconsistent. I think if the Cavs get to the finals, the series will be over in no more than 6 games, regardless of which team wins it. It will come down to how the Cavs handle the matchups and if the Lakers decide to show up or not. There's no doubt that the Lakers have the strongest supporting cast to their superstar, but Denver and Orlando are the two teams left with two or more go to guys (Denver with Chauncey and Carmello. Orlando with Lewis, Howard and the Turk). It should be a great Finals, no matter who the contestants are.

Oh and Scottie Pippen was pimp nasty dolla dolla bill pimpin.

ProggyMan 05-24-2009 01:03 AM

Pau Gasol is the best faceup center in the NBA. Besides that I agree, One team or another will run away with the finals. If the Lakers can close the Nugs out in 5 or 6 I think they ride the momentum/confidence to a 6 game win over the Cavs in the finals.

dac 05-24-2009 08:14 AM


Son of JayJamJah 05-24-2009 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan (Post 665090)
I didn't mention Gasol because he's the only one who's been consistently good in the playoffs, it's just he hasn't gotten the ball enough.
Pippen may not have been dominant per se, but who on the Cavs roster is comparable? Plus he was an absolute lockdown defender.

The way I see it is this: You can cite all the history you want, but Jordan didn't win a championship until his supporting cast raised their level of play, and he didn't have to be as dominant. Sure, down the stretch he always had the ball in his hands and was the unquestioned leader on the court, but compare his PER from before he won his first title and during his two three year runs. Bottom line is that this Cavs team is not only far less talented than the Lakers, but they matchup poorly. Terribly in fact. I think they have a good shot because of Lebron and because of the way the Lakers are playing, but if the Lakers elevate their to any level beyond what they're doing now, expect it to be over in 6.

First of all, to reiterate I respect your opinion if it's wrong it's not that I think your stupid, I just have a different viewpoint and will give you my reasons why. For this post I;d say your memory is clouded, or your just going off popular opinion, either way here's how it actually went down.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan (Post 665090)
Jordan didn't win a championship until his supporting cast raised their level of play, and he didn't have to be as dominant.

This is not true, it's often said, but is not true. Your PER reference is correct, but Jordan made the transition in his style of play two years prior. Jordan didn't win a title until the previous empire had fallen. The Pistons got old and the Bulls overtook them. Jordan's numbers were pretty much the same in 1991 as they were in 1990. The most notable change was his TO's which were the lowest of his career. In 2009 Lebrons turnovers are the lowest of his career. Most of his team mates numbers were also very much the same and starters Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant and Jon Paxson averages all went down the year they won the title.

Their are some wild similarities with the Cavs of 2008-09 and the Bulls of 1990-91 (Jordans first Championship season)

The second leading scorer for the '91 Bulls Scottie Pippen averaged 17.8 ppg
Mo Williams for the Cavs averaged 17.8 ppg

The top front court scorer for the '91 Bulls Horace Grant at 12.8 ppg
Big Z top the Cavs front line this season at 12.9 ppg

Beyond that The '91 Bulls did not have much, veterans Paxson and Cartwright were on the decline and their best young bench players Stacy King and BJ Armstrong never amounted to more then role players. Other then that three-point specialist Craig Hodges, Will Perdue and Dennis Hopson were on the team. Jordan won his title with what would have been a lottery team without him.

The Cavs at least have guys like Anderson Varejo and Delonte West who are rising young players. Not only that but they have a former four-time defensive MVP and number one pick coming off the bench in Ben Wallace and Joe Smith. Wally Sczerbiak is a former starter and Dan Gibson and Sasha Pavlovic played major roles in the 2007 Eastern Conference Champion Cavs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan (Post 665090)
Bottom line is that this Cavs team is not only far less talented than the Lakers, but they matchup poorly. Terribly in fact.

This is simply an opinion that no non-Laker fan has expressed. The teams are comparable in terms of talent. I would give the Lakers a slight edge. Regardless the Cavs have been slightly better during the whole season and have been much better in the playoffs.

One thing about the match-ups...what is going to happen when Lebron guards Kobe down the stretch of close games. If Paul Pierce could shut him down, imagine what the leagues top perimeter defender will do.

ProggyMan 05-24-2009 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayJamJah (Post 665252)
First of all, to reiterate I respect your opinion if it's wrong it's not that I think your stupid, I just have a different viewpoint and will give you my reasons why. For this post I;d say your memory is clouded, or your just going off popular opinion, either way here's how it actually went down.




This is not true, it's often said, but is not true. Your PER reference is correct, but Jordan made the transition in his style of play two years prior. Jordan didn't win a title until the previous empire had fallen. The Pistons got old and the Bulls overtook them. Jordan's numbers were pretty much the same in 1991 as they were in 1990. The most notable change was his TO's which were the lowest of his career. In 2009 Lebrons turnovers are the lowest of his career. Most of his team mates numbers were also very much the same and starters Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant and Jon Paxson averages all went down the year they won the title.

Their are some wild similarities with the Cavs of 2008-09 and the Bulls of 1990-91 (Jordans first Championship season)

The second leading scorer for the '91 Bulls Scottie Pippen averaged 17.8 ppg
Mo Williams for the Cavs averaged 17.8 ppg

The top front court scorer for the '91 Bulls Horace Grant at 12.8 ppg
Big Z top the Cavs front line this season at 12.9 ppg

Beyond that The '91 Bulls did not have much, veterans Paxson and Cartwright were on the decline and their best young bench players Stacy King and BJ Armstrong never amounted to more then role players. Other then that three-point specialist Craig Hodges, Will Perdue and Dennis Hopson were on the team. Jordan won his title with what would have been a lottery team without him.

The Cavs at least have guys like Anderson Varejo and Delonte West who are rising young players. Not only that but they have a former four-time defensive MVP and number one pick coming off the bench in Ben Wallace and Joe Smith. Wally Sczerbiak is a former starter and Dan Gibson and Sasha Pavlovic played major roles in the 2007 Eastern Conference Champion Cavs.

JJJ, I think Scottie Pippen is a much better player than Mo Williams, let's not kid ourselves. Same for Grant and Z. The Cavs, outside of Wallace (Washed up, and a liability) and Joe Smith don't have any veterans coming off the bench, unless you count Wally, who I haven't seen play well all season. That Jordan made his transition two years prior says it all to me, Lebron is only shouldering more and more of the load right now, the only significant addition to the team was essentially another shooter for LBJ to kick out to. Williams doesn't play defense, can't create his own shot, and you're calling him Jordan's Pippen? We'll see.

Quote:

This is simply an opinion that no non-Laker fan has expressed. The teams are comparable in terms of talent. I would give the Lakers a slight edge. Regardless the Cavs have been slightly better during the whole season and have been much better in the playoffs.
For the record I'm a Warriors fan. That's because of the Lakers inconsistency. If you look up and down the teams rosters you see this:
Lebron>Kobe
Big Z (I think he's better than Williams...) <Gasol
Williams<Odom
West<Ariza (The defense...)
Past there it gets fuzzy. Will Farmar get minutes over Fisher (He should)? Will Bynum be there, or not? He played good D last night, but just couldn't produce otherwise. Walton and Brown are as good, or better as anyone on the Cavs bench.

Quote:

One thing about the match-ups...what is going to happen when Lebron guards Kobe down the stretch of close games. If Paul Pierce could shut him down, imagine what the leagues top perimeter defender will do.
Well, that's tricky, and again depends on Phil Jackson. The reason the Cavs were so good on D this year is because of LBJ and the help he gives, along with his ability to completely shut down one opposing player. If he guards Kobe, meaning he can't double team, are the rest of the Cavs good enough to stop the Lakers post players? I don't think so. But like dac said, I think one or the other will happen and whoever wins will win in 6 or less.

Son of JayJamJah 05-24-2009 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan (Post 665324)
I think Scottie Pippen is a much better player than Mo Williams, let's not kid ourselves. Same for Grant and Z

Scottie Pippen became a better player but in 1991 Pippen wasn't even an all-star and Williams is an equally productive player and was an all-star in 2009.

As for Z and Grant, you're way off. Grant was always a role player, Z is a role player now whose production is very similar to Grants for those Bulls but in his prime he was one of the best centers in the league.

As for the bench, none of that is necessarily untrue but it's still a way better bench then what Jordan's Bulls had and that was the point we were debating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan (Post 665324)
Williams doesn't play defense, can't create his own shot, and you're calling him Jordan's Pippen

You have to read what I post and not try to guess what I mean.

Never said he was Jordan's Pippen, never said anything like that. They we're both their teams second leading scorer at 17.8 ppg; that's the only point I made.

Also you're wrong about Williams, he is not a great defender but he contains most guards and creates his own shot very well. He consistently created his own shot down the stretch with the Bucks and has made several big shots this year off the dribble.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan (Post 665324)
If you look up and down the teams rosters you see this:
Lebron>Kobe
Big Z (I think he's better than Williams...) <Gasol
Williams<Odom
West<Ariza (The defense...)
Past there it gets fuzzy. Will Farmar get minutes over Fisher (He should)? Will Bynum be there, or not? He played good D last night, but just couldn't produce otherwise. Walton and Brown are as good, or better as anyone on the Cavs bench.

Please try and back up your opinions with facts, stats or anything really, they're getting less and less legit.

Basketball is not about the sum of all parts it's about how they work together. Regardless I think Williams is a better player then Odom and West is better then Ariza so your point is meaningless. Neither Fisher or Farmar are good enough to start for Cleveland.

As for your bench analysis I don't think you've watched Cleveland much this year, otherwise you don't understand the game very well.

Shannon Brown is only playing because Vujacic has been a disaster the last two months. He was cut by Cleveland a few years back, he'll likely be out of the NBA within three years if he lasts that long.

Walton is a nice role player in that he is smart, unselfish a good passer and a team player but not a threat at all on offense and a poor defender.

Joe Smith, Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiak and Daniel Gibson were all equally or more productive bench players this year then either Walton or Brown. The numbers don't lie.

I know you'll disagree but the match-ups actually greatly favor the Cavs.

The Cavs are the best team in the NBA at guarding the two and five positions where the Lakers best two offensive players are. Their only weakness defensively is against scoring PG's which the Lakers don't have.

The Lakers meanwhile were 21st in the league in opponents SF scoring and 24th in opponents PG scoring, The Cavs top two scorers are of course their PG and SF.

Off course that all means nothing if the Cavs or Lakers don't win their current series, but that's not the point of this discussion. If the Lakers win it will be because they Cavs don't play up to their standard or because the Lakers play higher above theirs.

dac 05-24-2009 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan (Post 665324)
West<Ariza (The defense...)

You do realize that Delonte West is one of the top ten perimeter defenders in the league right?

ProggyMan 05-24-2009 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dac (Post 665446)
You do realize that Delonte West is one of the top ten perimeter defenders in the league right?

Prove it. Says who? Find me a source.

Son of JayJamJah 05-24-2009 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan (Post 665450)
Prove it. Says who? Find me a source.

This coming from you...

Here's a source that he is at least very good and better then Ariza

http://www.82games.com/0809/BYPOSIT.HTM

dac 05-24-2009 10:27 PM

Fml.


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