NBA thread

[crash_override]

Originally Posted by dac

Fml.

Yep.

[ProggyMan]

A couple thoughts on Lebron and leadership: For gods sake, I know you want to be a good teammate and all, but take a page from Kobes book and light a damn fire!

[ProggyMan]

Originally Posted by JayJamJah

Scottie Pippen became a better player but in 1991 Pippen wasn't even an all-star and Williams is an equally productive player and was an all-star in 2009.

As for Z and Grant, you're way off. Grant was always a role player, Z is a role player now whose production is very similar to Grants for those Bulls but in his prime he was one of the best centers in the league.

As for the bench, none of that is necessarily untrue but it's still a way better bench then what Jordan's Bulls had and that was the point we were debating.



You have to read what I post and not try to guess what I mean.

Never said he was Jordan's Pippen, never said anything like that. They we're both their teams second leading scorer at 17.8 ppg; that's the only point I made.

Also you're wrong about Williams, he is not a great defender but he contains most guards and creates his own shot very well. He consistently created his own shot down the stretch with the Bucks and has made several big shots this year off the dribble.




Please try and back up your opinions with facts, stats or anything really, they're getting less and less legit.

Basketball is not about the sum of all parts it's about how they work together. Regardless I think Williams is a better player then Odom and West is better then Ariza so your point is meaningless. Neither Fisher or Farmar are good enough to start for Cleveland.

As for your bench analysis I don't think you've watched Cleveland much this year, otherwise you don't understand the game very well.

Shannon Brown is only playing because Vujacic has been a disaster the last two months. He was cut by Cleveland a few years back, he'll likely be out of the NBA within three years if he lasts that long.

Walton is a nice role player in that he is smart, unselfish a good passer and a team player but not a threat at all on offense and a poor defender.

Joe Smith, Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiak and Daniel Gibson were all equally or more productive bench players this year then either Walton or Brown. The numbers don't lie.

I know you'll disagree but the match-ups actually greatly favor the Cavs.

The Cavs are the best team in the NBA at guarding the two and five positions where the Lakers best two offensive players are. Their only weakness defensively is against scoring PG's which the Lakers don't have.

The Lakers meanwhile were 21st in the league in opponents SF scoring and 24th in opponents PG scoring, The Cavs top two scorers are of course their PG and SF.

Off course that all means nothing if the Cavs or Lakers don't win their current series, but that's not the point of this discussion. If the Lakers win it will be because they Cavs don't play up to their standard or because the Lakers play higher above theirs.

I wrote a couple paragraphs in response, but my computer crashed, so I'll sum it up like this:
1. Pippen is twice as good as Mo Williams, these teams aren't comparable.
2. Ok.
3. Ok. That second star is worth more than any bench.
4. Williams is a mediocre defender and the reason the Cavs struggle against scorings PGs. Lucky for them the Lakers don't have one.
5. This is true, haven't worked so well together against Orlando, or against LA in the regular season, no? I did a statistical comparison with Williams/Odom and West/Ariza, but it's gone now, so I simply suggest you look up the box scores for the two regular season meetings.
6. Brown has been excellent in the playoffs. Over 50% on 3s very good on D.
7. Ariza has been great is the playoffs, averaging 11.3 a game on over 50% from 3 in 24.4 mpg.
8. Cavs bench players you mentioned:
Joe Smith: 6.4 ppg, 4.4 rpg in 19.8 minutes, solid numbers for a backup.
Wally: 4 ppg, 1-7 from 3 in the playoffs.
Gibson: 2.3 ppg on 4-17 from 3 in playoffs. Ok...
Wallace: .7 ppg, 2.4 rpg in 11.8 mpg in playoffs. Ok...
Pavlovic: 2.6 ppg, .4 apg in 9.4 mpg in playoffs. Ok...
In summary the bench has been awful in the playoffs.
Ariza has outplayed West, averaging more points per minute and shooting a higher percentage from both 3 and overall:
West:
PPG: 12.8
RPG: 3.5
APG: 4.1
SPG: 1.36
MPG: 41.5
FG%: 46.4
3PFG%: 35.7
Ariza:
PPG: 11.5
RPG: 3.8
APG: 2.7
APG: 1.67
MPG: 30.3
FG%: 55
3PFG%: 51
9. Normally I'm a big fan of advanced stats, but in this case they're misleading. If the Lakers don't matchup favorably, and aren't far more talented, then how do you explain the regular season matchups?

[dac]

Originally Posted by ProggyMan

Ariza has outplayed West, averaging more points per minute and shooting a higher percentage from both 3 and overall:
West:
PPG: 12.8
RPG: 3.5
APG: 4.1
SPG: 1.36
MPG: 41.5
FG%: 46.4
3PFG%: 35.7
Ariza:
PPG: 11.5
RPG: 3.8
APG: 2.7
APG: 1.67
MPG: 30.3
FG%: 55
3PFG%: 51

Let's see how Trevor Ariza does against the opposing team's top scorer who happens to be 7 inches taller than him...

[ProggyMan]

You mean Hedo? That's just 3 games, the numbers from the first two series (Where the Lakers play vastly superior teams) tells the same tale.

[dac]

Originally Posted by ProggyMan

You mean Hedo? That's just 3 games, the numbers from the first two series (Where the Lakers play vastly superior teams) tells the same tale.

The Cavs were in cruise control though... they weren't particularly straining themselves and trying their hardest.

[ProggyMan]

Yes they were, that's why they swept. Lebron had his team totally focused. The Hawks/Pistons aren't that bad.

[dac]

Originally Posted by ProggyMan

Lebron had his team totally focused.

Actually Z and Mo had statistically bad series' against both the Pistons and Hawks.

[midnight rain]

Originally Posted by JayJamJah

Well Game two proved that you can and can't rely on stats and history to tell you what's going to happen. Hedo, Lewis and Howard came back to earth although they all played well again and LeBron's supporting cast was again absent. The Magic came back from down 20+ again somehow (Mike Brown will get Doug Collins'ed ose his job if they don't win this series) and it came down to the last possession.

I would like to apologize to all people from Turkey, especially The Turk himself who has been dynamite down the stretch on the road through two games of this series. I would have (and did) called him one of the worst go-to-guys in the league before this series and he's really shined. What a shot he hit to put Orlando up.

Now on to the part I was right about. Lebron is the best closer in the game and having him on your team eliminates all talk about match-ups dictating a series. He dictates the series. No other player in the league hits that shot he hit last night. No one gets open on that spot even.

The Magic dominated the last 2 1/2 quarters and Hedo hit one of the biggest shots in franchise history and left just 1 tick. Still it wasn't enough. The worst news is the Cavs played their worst two games of the playoffs and they only stole one.

Lebrons main support has been brutal:

D West is just 8-20 40%
Mo Williams is 13-40 32.5%
and Big Z is 10-24 42%

During the regular season and rest of the playoffs they've shot 47% each. That is a huge gap of 10% shooting which amounts to almost 11 points a game,

Cavs in Five

Ever thought that their shooting percentage is like that because the Magic have been doing a good job covering them?

The Cavs won by ONE point with ONE second left at HOME court and you sounded reassured that that win clinched the series.

Your predictions so far are flat out wrong. Didn't you say every Cavs game from here on out would be a win by double digits (or something along those lines)?

[ProggyMan]

Originally Posted by dac

Actually Z and Mo had statistically bad series' against both the Pistons and Hawks.

So? Did West?