NHL Thread

Ninetales · 08-03-2014, 01:35 AM

No, like you're just completely wrong here. Subban lets less shots against than gorges 5on5 when they're not on the ice together. You can pretend gorges is better but it's simply untrue. He's a glorified 3rd pairing. Subban is worth the money. Montreal is doing it right here. Sign your good players to a lot, don't sign your ok players who want a lot

Hockeyman · 08-03-2014, 09:21 AM

Can you explain why Subban lets less shots 5 on 5 than Georges? Also I wasn't arguing that Georges was better as an overall player. It's obvious that Subban is faster, Stronger and has a much better offensive touch. I was arguing that Subban is a defensive liability at times and Georges is not a defensive liability.

Ninetales · 08-03-2014, 01:07 PM

Why? because hes not a defenseive liability as a lot of people suggest. My real guess would be because PK is more adept at getting the puck out of the d zone and up the ice, thus resulting in less second chances than Gorges, but that's just a guess. Either way, it's a myth that PK isn't good defensively.

To be fair, Gorges is pretty decent at suffocating shots against, but PK is just as good/better, AND drives the play better than any other player on Montreal. You have to pay to those players because theyre difference makers. Like I said, Gorges is replaceable and MTL did basically replace him with a better version in Weaver.

Hockeyman · 08-04-2014, 12:19 AM

On one hand I've seen enough of Subban's games(There's not much else to watch in Montreal) to say that at times he is a defensive liability. On the other hand you have an excellent point about a good defense is a good offence. Subban will also be far more of a person who will fire up a team emotionally. You have convinced me he's worth 9 mill a season.

Also Weaver is a can of Georges lite. I also like Roman Polak as a player, but I haven't seen enough of his games to argue any point other than I like Polak.

Ninetales · 08-04-2014, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeyman

On one hand I've seen enough of Subban's games(There's not much else to watch in Montreal) to say that at times he is a defensive liability.

Yeah, im not going to sit here and say he's never been a liability. But I think of hockey as a zero sum game, and more often than not subban is doing good things way more than bad. one thing that I think the eye test misses a lot in hockey is the little things good (most of the time offensive) defensemen do to qquickly transition the puck from the d zone into the offensive zone. It's why guys like Subban and Karlsson get ragged on a lot. Both are high incident players, so lots of things happen when theyre on the ice. hockey culture in general is very risk averse, but you need those guys because of how much they generate.

similarly, when we used to have tom gilbert, most fans (including myself for a bit) really didn't like him. it was the same deal with his reputation being that he couldn't play in his own zone. but make no mistake, he is very good. I wish the oilers had held on to him because at the time he was probably the best we had. And he was fantastic last year as well. Him and Campbell were one of the absolute best d pairings in the whole league and were criminally underrated. if they ever play him with subban this year, im sure some fans will hate it, but it would probably be a ridiculously good top pairing.

Hockeyman · 08-04-2014, 10:31 PM

Very True.

I don't know any true Oiler Fans so I've got to ask. How do you feel about the young guns they have? Do you think they'll strong together like LA and Chicago or need to move one or two pieces to receive the missing piece?

Ninetales · 08-05-2014, 07:49 AM

Well i think they can be. The problem with the oilers forwards hasnt been their top line imo, but rather their depth, or lack there of. Hall is a superstar. Nuge might be able to become a great top line guy, but he was thrown into the wolves so to speak, so he's not there yet. at worst hes a really good 2C. Eberle is probably better suited for second line duties too, but you could do worse having him top line. MacT did do a decent job in getting Purcell and Pouliot this year, which makes our second and third lines a lot better on the wing, but now our center depth is very poor. It looks like we'll be going into camp with Nuge-Draisaitl-Arcobello-Gordon. Id rather them not rush Draisaitl, but it looks like thats theyre plan at this point, barring a trade.

But a bigger reason we've been so bad for so long, is that we dont have any top line defensemen. and so we've been giving large assignments to guys who arent good enough to handle them. The Fayne signing is a good one, but i have my doubts that he'll be as great as he was in NJ, who somehow restrict shots like no one else. Petry is our best dman, but he's not a top line guy. He's a good 3-4 guy on a better team. Justin Schultz is likely not as good as everyone thinks and needs to be sheltered like crazy, Nikitin is an ok second pairing d, Ference is fine as a 3rd pairing. Marincin was a great suprise last year, so if he can continue that would be huge, but still. We still dont really have an amazing top pairing, but amazing d is hard to find. Maybe Klefbom and Nurse will be that, but not this year.

I think we'll be competitive, but the west just keeps getting better, so i dont think we make playoffs. maybe the 9 or 10 spot. But this is the first year in a long time im actually excited about our growth. If we were going to trade one or more of our young guys id trade Eberle or JSchultz. Both seem to have higher reputations than i believe they are, emphasis there on Schultz. oh and i wouldnt trade Yakupov

tl;dr i dont think the oilers are good enough to beat LA or Chicago, but theyre on the right track.

Hockeyman · 08-05-2014, 04:03 PM

I think The Oilers can make the playoffs this year. Vancover and Calgary don't seem to know what they're doing. With some 3-4 game winning streaks the Oilers could pass a Minnesota or Winnipeg to make it into the post-season.

Ninetales · 08-05-2014, 04:40 PM

I wont rule it out. I think Colorado is going to be a team that will fall greatly this year, and will miss playoffs but beyond that competition looks stiff. Dallas got a hell of a lot better, Minny added Vanek without losing much, Nashville got Neal and a **** load of centers and will have a healthy Rinne, Phoenix is always somehow decent, and Vancouver is probaby better than their record suggested last year. im guessing the 2 wildcards will be from this group except dallas who i suspect will take over colorado's place in the tcentral top 3. Tough thing for the oilers is they have sj, la and anaheim to contend with for the top3 plus vancouver/phoenix. The west is tough, but it's conceivable that the oilers make it. Cautious optimism ill call it haha.

also in related oiler news

probably one of the best stats hockey bloggers around right now gets hired by them. This is exciting times. It's unfortunate that he had to shut down his site for this, as some of the stuff he's written about in the past 8 years has been exceptional. im hoping hes able to create an archive, but even if not im glad it's the oilers that got him. This is the same guy that Steve Simmons yelled "you think youre smarter than 30 gms??" at on the radio that i posted a while back which is pretty funny to me.

The Ascension · 08-10-2014, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

list of dmen better than subban

doughty
chara
vlasic
keith

end list

high risk, high reward is better than low risk, no reward

lol wut

08-03-2014, 01:35 AM	#2021 (permalink)
Ninetales Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: livin wild Posts: 2,179	No, like you're just completely wrong here. Subban lets less shots against than gorges 5on5 when they're not on the ice together. You can pretend gorges is better but it's simply untrue. He's a glorified 3rd pairing. Subban is worth the money. Montreal is doing it right here. Sign your good players to a lot, don't sign your ok players who want a lot

08-03-2014, 09:21 AM	#2022 (permalink)
Hockeyman Groupie Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 14	Can you explain why Subban lets less shots 5 on 5 than Georges? Also I wasn't arguing that Georges was better as an overall player. It's obvious that Subban is faster, Stronger and has a much better offensive touch. I was arguing that Subban is a defensive liability at times and Georges is not a defensive liability.

08-03-2014, 01:07 PM	#2023 (permalink)
Ninetales Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: livin wild Posts: 2,179	Why? because hes not a defenseive liability as a lot of people suggest. My real guess would be because PK is more adept at getting the puck out of the d zone and up the ice, thus resulting in less second chances than Gorges, but that's just a guess. Either way, it's a myth that PK isn't good defensively. To be fair, Gorges is pretty decent at suffocating shots against, but PK is just as good/better, AND drives the play better than any other player on Montreal. You have to pay to those players because theyre difference makers. Like I said, Gorges is replaceable and MTL did basically replace him with a better version in Weaver.

08-04-2014, 12:19 AM	#2024 (permalink)
Hockeyman Groupie Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 14	On one hand I've seen enough of Subban's games(There's not much else to watch in Montreal) to say that at times he is a defensive liability. On the other hand you have an excellent point about a good defense is a good offence. Subban will also be far more of a person who will fire up a team emotionally. You have convinced me he's worth 9 mill a season. Also Weaver is a can of Georges lite. I also like Roman Polak as a player, but I haven't seen enough of his games to argue any point other than I like Polak.

08-04-2014, 10:31 PM	#2026 (permalink)
Hockeyman Groupie Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 14	Very True. I don't know any true Oiler Fans so I've got to ask. How do you feel about the young guns they have? Do you think they'll strong together like LA and Chicago or need to move one or two pieces to receive the missing piece?

08-05-2014, 07:49 AM	#2027 (permalink)
Ninetales Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: livin wild Posts: 2,179	Well i think they can be. The problem with the oilers forwards hasnt been their top line imo, but rather their depth, or lack there of. Hall is a superstar. Nuge might be able to become a great top line guy, but he was thrown into the wolves so to speak, so he's not there yet. at worst hes a really good 2C. Eberle is probably better suited for second line duties too, but you could do worse having him top line. MacT did do a decent job in getting Purcell and Pouliot this year, which makes our second and third lines a lot better on the wing, but now our center depth is very poor. It looks like we'll be going into camp with Nuge-Draisaitl-Arcobello-Gordon. Id rather them not rush Draisaitl, but it looks like thats theyre plan at this point, barring a trade. But a bigger reason we've been so bad for so long, is that we dont have any top line defensemen. and so we've been giving large assignments to guys who arent good enough to handle them. The Fayne signing is a good one, but i have my doubts that he'll be as great as he was in NJ, who somehow restrict shots like no one else. Petry is our best dman, but he's not a top line guy. He's a good 3-4 guy on a better team. Justin Schultz is likely not as good as everyone thinks and needs to be sheltered like crazy, Nikitin is an ok second pairing d, Ference is fine as a 3rd pairing. Marincin was a great suprise last year, so if he can continue that would be huge, but still. We still dont really have an amazing top pairing, but amazing d is hard to find. Maybe Klefbom and Nurse will be that, but not this year. I think we'll be competitive, but the west just keeps getting better, so i dont think we make playoffs. maybe the 9 or 10 spot. But this is the first year in a long time im actually excited about our growth. If we were going to trade one or more of our young guys id trade Eberle or JSchultz. Both seem to have higher reputations than i believe they are, emphasis there on Schultz. oh and i wouldnt trade Yakupov tl;dr i dont think the oilers are good enough to beat LA or Chicago, but theyre on the right track.

08-05-2014, 04:03 PM	#2028 (permalink)
Hockeyman Groupie Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 14	I think The Oilers can make the playoffs this year. Vancover and Calgary don't seem to know what they're doing. With some 3-4 game winning streaks the Oilers could pass a Minnesota or Winnipeg to make it into the post-season.

08-05-2014, 04:40 PM	#2029 (permalink)
Ninetales Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: livin wild Posts: 2,179	I wont rule it out. I think Colorado is going to be a team that will fall greatly this year, and will miss playoffs but beyond that competition looks stiff. Dallas got a hell of a lot better, Minny added Vanek without losing much, Nashville got Neal and a **** load of centers and will have a healthy Rinne, Phoenix is always somehow decent, and Vancouver is probaby better than their record suggested last year. im guessing the 2 wildcards will be from this group except dallas who i suspect will take over colorado's place in the tcentral top 3. Tough thing for the oilers is they have sj, la and anaheim to contend with for the top3 plus vancouver/phoenix. The west is tough, but it's conceivable that the oilers make it. Cautious optimism ill call it haha. also in related oiler news probably one of the best stats hockey bloggers around right now gets hired by them. This is exciting times. It's unfortunate that he had to shut down his site for this, as some of the stuff he's written about in the past 8 years has been exceptional. im hoping hes able to create an archive, but even if not im glad it's the oilers that got him. This is the same guy that Steve Simmons yelled "you think youre smarter than 30 gms??" at on the radio that i posted a while back which is pretty funny to me.