Great Debate: Are eSports sports?

FETCHER. · 04-17-2012, 10:54 AM

AMEN sista. I've always appreciated you Anticipation, you're able to say what I want to but can't find the words for and you always deliver.

GuitarBizarre · 04-17-2012, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurora

So you're saying I should encourage my pupils to play video games?

I'd like to discuss this with you, but I'm gonna have to lay down the gound rule that neither of us will reference or take notice of Il Duce's bull**** trolling. I'm more than happy to talk seriously about this, but I'm not going to have the whole thing turned into a farce by that jackass.

GuitarBizarre · 04-17-2012, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anticipation

The inclusion of games like darts, snooker, pool, bowling, etc. in this discussion as a justification for why "eSports" should be seen as true sports is ridiculous because none of those activities meet the criteria I would deem most necessary in any definition of sports. That being physical contact with another human being, and the significantly high chance of serious injury resulting from said contact. There's a reason that people value the big 4 sports much more than they do "professional video gaming", and it more than likely has something to do with the fact that athletes are putting their bodies on the line every play and risk tearing ACL/MCL's, concussions, and broken bones, as opposed to having sore thumbs and tired eyes from watching a monitor all day and night. True athletes are constantly pushing the limits of their bodies and minds, and sitting around with a controller in your hand is most certainly not as physically taxing as outright contact at high speeds. Just because you have an organized and competitive framework does not immediately justify you calling yourself a sport. There has to be a level of physical contact in conjunction with a high degree of mental stress, not one or the other. There are games, and then there are sports. In my eyes it is this key difference that separates the two.

Can you quantify why this is the key difference and what your argument is beyond the assertion? I think we've delved sufficiently deep into the concept of sports as to explain why etymologically all of those games, and eSports, qualify. If you're going to make a counter to that I'd really have to insist you provide reasoning based on etymology and prior categorisation of similar things, rather than gut feeling as to what quantifies sport.

**Janszoon** · 04-17-2012, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anticipation

The inclusion of games like darts, snooker, pool, bowling, etc. in this discussion as a justification for why "eSports" should be seen as true sports is ridiculous because none of those activities meet the criteria I would deem most necessary in any definition of sports. That being physical contact with another human being, and the significantly high chance of serious injury resulting from said contact. There's a reason that people value the big 4 sports much more than they do "professional video gaming", and it more than likely has something to do with the fact that athletes are putting their bodies on the line every play and risk tearing ACL/MCL's, concussions, and broken bones, as opposed to having sore thumbs and tired eyes from watching a monitor all day and night. True athletes are constantly pushing the limits of their bodies and minds, and sitting around with a controller in your hand is most certainly not as physically taxing as outright contact at high speeds. Just because you have an organized and competitive framework does not immediately justify you calling yourself a sport. There has to be a level of physical contact in conjunction with a high degree of mental stress, not one or the other. There are games, and then there are sports. In my eyes it is this key difference that separates the two.

I can't say I agree with your definition there as it means that everything from tennis and volleyball to every track and field event is not a sport. Surely track and field, at the very least, as forms of physical competition that go all the way back to the ancient Olympics, should be included in any definition of sports.

TheBig3 · 04-17-2012, 12:57 PM

You know the more I thought about the "definition" argument, the more I realized it didn't make any sense. Given that we say things like "old sport" and "Give it a sporting chance", the word doesn't seem to really come from actions as we'd define it today.

So then I asked my old friend entomology about it and he said:

[Middle English sporte, short for disporte, from Old French desport, pleasure, from desporter, to divert; see disport.]

Which loosely translated means eSports are the very definition of sport.

anticipation · 04-17-2012, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Can you quantify why this is the key difference and what your argument is beyond the assertion? I think we've delved sufficiently deep into the concept of sports as to explain why etymologically all of those games, and eSports, qualify. If you're going to make a counter to that I'd really have to insist you provide reasoning based on etymology and prior categorisation of similar things, rather than gut feeling as to what quantifies sport.

Certainly, however I'd initially like to state that you and I both know the only reason you started this thread and have continued to assert your position is to justify why you are right and others are wrong. You are using this thread as a means to a very defined end, and as such I find it laughable that you question my assertions while simultaneously taking the definitions of sports that you have found that support your argument as gospel. Whether or not my reasoning is anecdotal does not detract from my argument, and I'd be very interested to see what you come up with as a counter.

The crux of my argument is the fact that if you were to ask an athlete who participates in a physical sport as to whether or not they consider such games as bowling, snooker, darts, competitive gaming, bocce ball, etc. as sports the answer would almost always be a definitive no. I have been involved in AAA hockey for 12 years of my life and at every level my coaches, teammates, and organizational staff have all expressed disdain at the mention of these games as being "sports". In addition to my own experience with the subject, those of my close friends who participate in NCAA D-I, D-III, and NAIA athletics, all have shared similar sentiments and question why those who are not involved in these organizations deem these activities to be sports, when the governing bodies they fall under are not recognized by the NCAA or the NAIA, both widely respected developmental associations in the sporting world.

Sports, as defined by numerous organizational committees around the world are seen as a tool to not only encourage the development of social relationships, mental acuity, and sportsmanship, but as a means of promoting physical fitness and health. If you'd like a definition that doesn't come from my head, then I would gladly point to you the Council of Europe's Sport Charter, which states "Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or obtaining results in competition at all levels". Sporting is a vehicle for spreading the ideals of physical fitness and maintenance of one's body, not just a leisurely pastime. It is evident that professional gaming does not, and will never, meet the criteria of what it means to be a sport because the participants are not athletes, it does not promote physical fitness or health, and do not engage in any sort of competitive activity that engages the entire body. Look to the initiatives supported by the NBA, NHL, MLB, NFL, and governments around the world such as Play 60, Let's Move!, and other such programs that encourage getting out of the house and limiting the playing of video games, and you will see that there is not a single credible institution that supports the notion of video gaming as a viable physical activity.

Mrd00d · 04-17-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anticipation

There's a reason that people value the big 4 sports...

Hockey, Soccer, Lacrosse, Rugby?

Where does baseball fit in?

I've read the thread so far. I agree with GB. IF darts is a sport, for example, then I'll consider competitive gaming a sport. I follow most of GB's reasonings for this. I also understand where others are coming from. I think Canwll Corfe said it best.

Quote:

I could see that. It's certainly tricky. There's a discussion like this that happens in the fragrance community quite a bit (as to whether perfumery is an art or a sort of olfactory design/craft). It's all semantics and how you define sport, really.

It's not being said that competitive gaming is as much of a sport as American football or rugby, we're saying it's technically a sport, at least comparable with the likes of dart and golf. I think golf is hardly a sport, myself, but it is considered thus. Competitive gamers are doing a lot more under the same, if not more competitive pressure.

GuitarBizarre · 04-17-2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anticipation

Certainly, however I'd initially like to state that you and I both know the only reason you started this thread and have continued to assert your position is to justify why you are right and others are wrong. You are using this thread as a means to a very defined end, and as such I find it laughable that you question my assertions while simultaneously taking the definitions of sports that you have found that support your argument as gospel. Whether or not my reasoning is anecdotal does not detract from my argument, and I'd be very interested to see what you come up with as a counter.

The crux of my argument is the fact that if you were to ask an athlete who participates in a physical sport as to whether or not they consider such games as bowling, snooker, darts, competitive gaming, bocce ball, etc. as sports the answer would almost always be a definitive no. I have been involved in AAA hockey for 12 years of my life and at every level my coaches, teammates, and organizational staff have all expressed disdain at the mention of these games as being "sports". In addition to my own experience with the subject, those of my close friends who participate in NCAA D-I, D-III, and NAIA athletics, all have shared similar sentiments and question why those who are not involved in these organizations deem these activities to be sports, when the governing bodies they fall under are not recognized by the NCAA or the NAIA, both widely respected developmental associations in the sporting world.

Sports, as defined by numerous organizational committees around the world are seen as a tool to not only encourage the development of social relationships, mental acuity, and sportsmanship, but as a means of promoting physical fitness and health. If you'd like a definition that doesn't come from my head, then I would gladly point to you the Council of Europe's Sport Charter, which states "Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or obtaining results in competition at all levels". Sporting is a vehicle for spreading the ideals of physical fitness and maintenance of one's body, not just a leisurely pastime. It is evident that professional gaming does not, and will never, meet the criteria of what it means to be a sport because the participants are not athletes, it does not promote physical fitness or health, and do not engage in any sort of competitive activity that engages the entire body. Look to the initiatives supported by the NBA, NHL, MLB, NFL, and governments around the world such as Play 60, Let's Move!, and other such programs that encourage getting out of the house and limiting the playing of video games, and you will see that there is not a single credible institution that supports the notion of video gaming as a viable physical activity.

First things first - The first sentence of your post is needless baiting. If you read my original post you will very clearly see that I admit to my personal bias. You're stating it as if I'm claiming to be impartial. I'm absolutely not. I am, however, claiming to be reasonable.

As far as your argument goes, let me get this straight. A bunch of anecdotal stuff about how groups with a vested interest in physical activity as sport, and the charter of a european sports organisation, are in some way intended to convince me over and above the Olympic definition, and over the classification as sport of dozens of different games that don't fit that narrow viewpoint?

This isn't really an argument. You're doing nothing more than telling me that some people don't think its a sport. I can very well see that from this thread. Who it is saying it doesn't change the fact that nobody thus far has provided an actual rationale beyond an argument on physical activity that I don't believe is valid, and that I have discussed at length already.

~~James~~ · 04-17-2012, 05:01 PM

Hell yeah guys, lets get Tetris into the next Olympics!

GuitarBizarre · 04-17-2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James

Hell yeah guys, lets get Tetris into the next Olympics!

I don't agree, for reasons covered earlier, but regardless, here, have an unbelievably impressive video of someone playing Tetris.

04-17-2012, 12:57 PM	#85 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	You know the more I thought about the "definition" argument, the more I realized it didn't make any sense. Given that we say things like "old sport" and "Give it a sporting chance", the word doesn't seem to really come from actions as we'd define it today. So then I asked my old friend entomology about it and he said: [Middle English sporte, short for disporte, from Old French desport, pleasure, from desporter, to divert; see disport.] Which loosely translated means eSports are the very definition of sport.

04-17-2012, 05:01 PM	#89 (permalink)
~~James~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,483	Hell yeah guys, lets get Tetris into the next Olympics!