The English Football Thread

[TheCunningStunt]

You quoted me but cut out the part that rationalised the last sentence. I already mentioned the criticism we have to take - the fan base, Fergie time etc.

United fans can't handle it? We handle it every time we have conversation with opposition fans, and why do a lot of other fans say they hate United? Not fans like Liverpool or Chelsea or City, but fans that are nowhere near us in terms of rivalry or ability...

Jealousy. What else would it be? Oh yeah, because we get to play football for more than 90 minutes when we need to and we generally cheat. Even though Arsenal have scored more injury time goals (last season or the season before, bit unsure.) than any other club.... and the likes of Bolton/Stoke/Blackburn play dirtier football. So I don't see a reason other than jealousy to hate United.

[Urban Hat€monger ?]

Originally Posted by TheCunningStunt

Jealousy. What else would it be? Oh yeah, because we get to play football for more than 90 minutes when we need to and we generally cheat. Even though Arsenal have scored more injury time goals (last season or the season before, bit unsure.) than any other club.... and the likes of Bolton/Stoke/Blackburn play dirtier football. So I don't see a reason other than jealousy to hate United.

Or it could be the fact that allowing teams to run debts of hundreds of millions of pounds makes a complete mockery of the game. The sooner FIFA & UEFA take action on it the better as far as I'm concerned.

Teams have to virtually bankrupt themselves to compete against the top sides these days. Just look at the lower leagues & look at the number of ex Premier League casualties that are down there, meanwhile teams that run within their budgets and spend sensibly have to fight for scraps wherever they can with maybe a cup run or a Europa league spot, that's if they are lucky.

But yeah it's got nothing to do with that, It's just jealousy at what Man Utd have won over the years

[TheCunningStunt]

We set the standard on how to run a football club for years and years, as a PTC. Then we get "bought" in a way that really should have been illegal and we're making a mockery of the game?

Clubs have to bankrupt themselves to compete with the top sides?
United built themselves up and funded ourselves - no multi millionaire sat there spewing out cash.
So that's other clubs problem, not Manchester United's.
All the money we spent, it was money the club earned themselves.

People's arguments on the reasons for hating United really are shite.

[Urban Hat€monger ?]

I don't have an issue with Man United.

I have an issue with clubs being allowed to run like that.
Man Utd happens to be one of those clubs, same as Leeds were, same as Portsmouth were same as Liverpool now are.

Regardless of how much money Man Utd make the fact is they're something like £700 million in debt. Clubs get points deducted for going into administration, I think they should get points deducted for going into debt too. 1 point for every £10 million sounds about right.

[TheCunningStunt]

Or the owners should be checked out properly and they should only be allowed to buy the football club if they can afford to do so.

Glazer took out a loan, and then put the debt back onto the club.

That isn't the reason United are hated, I'm sure United fans hate the situation more than any other fan of any other club. United are hated by fans of clubs who aren't particularly relevant to us out of jealousy. I can't see any other reason for it.

I remember speaking to a City fan and we were talking about how ridiculous the amount of money they're spending is and he said "you've been doing it for years."
Spending millions of pounds, when it's your money to spend is one thing.
Buying success is another and taking spending to a whole new level is another.

Chelsea were sh*te before 2004. Rubbish fan base as well, now they are in the top 5 for biggest fan bases in the world, and yet I feel United are still one of the if not THE most hated club.

[right-track]

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger

I don't have an issue with Man United.

I have an issue with clubs being allowed to run like that.
Man Utd happens to be one of those clubs, same as Leeds were, same as Portsmouth were same as Liverpool now are.

Regardless of how much money Man Utd make the fact is they're something like £700 million in debt. Clubs get points deducted for going into administration, I think they should get points deducted for going into debt too. 1 point for every £10 million sounds about right.

But United aren't the same as Leeds, Liverpool and Portsmouth.
That's the point I've been making.
United have the biggest debt. There's no disputing that, but United's debt was incurred by the Glaziers who bought the club on borrowed money. Not by overspending on players.
A club only goes into administration if they are unable to service the debt incurred.
Interestingly enough, only 6 clubs in the premier league are able to service their debt.

Originally Posted by jackhammer

I have never disputed Villa's turnover and accept that we will never be a big player in the premiership. Why do u think I haven't commented on any results this season because of off the field activities?

It doesn't mean that Man U are immune from any criticism levelled their way and that's what get's up the noses of other football fans.

It's like saying that there is only one band in the world and how dare we criticise them because of that?

We know Man U are the most successful team of the modern era but it is boring and they are not without their problems these days.

Despite making 80 mill on Ronaldo the money wasn't spent a great deal and you made a loss of 80 mill too this year.

We notice these things

When I said fans of clubs need to look closer to home...I wasn't kidding.
Those fans who criticise United for their debt need to realise that their own clubs financial situation, in real business terms, are far worse than that of United's.
It seems you're lucky enough to have a benefactor over at Villa! £93 million in debt Lee? Only a £2 million profit margin? And a sugar daddy too!
Lets hope he doesn't get bored. Have a think about that before you criticise United.

It's a sad fact of football that every Premier League club is in debt.
If we go off Urban's 1 point deducted per £10 million, then wouldn't it be fairer to deduct points from the clubs who are unable to service that debt?

The Current Level of Debt in the Premier League | Onebooker Blog

btw...The shadow dwellers over at the council house have spent more money on players in the last year than United have in the last 5.

[jackhammer]

^^^^
According to this site which u have given as an example:

Sadly, the high profile leveraged buy-outs of two of the league’s highest profile clubs, Liverpool and Manchester United, has shown us the other end of the spectrum. In both cases, US investors with no interest in football have used debt financing to purchase the clubs simply to line their own pockets.

Villa are 93m in debt but that is 'Indicates soft loans (i.e. loans provided by benefactors with reduced or no interest)'
Man Utd are 717m in debt and the interest is nearly 70 m whilst Villa's is less than £400,000


What I am saying is that a severe financial hit along the line for Man u will seriously hinder their stability whereas Villa's 'Sugar Daddy' has barely borrowed a penny and although it's hard for fans to take, we have barely spent anything in the last transfer market because we just couldn't afford it.

Away from this my point was that it's always the jealousy card thrown at anyone time and time again if you dare to criticise Man Utd.

As for the 'Chelsea were crap before 2004' holds no weight for me. Chelsea and the Glenn Hoddle era brought us Ruud Gullit, Zola, Di Matteo and a virtual rebuilding of the stadium long before Abramovich. The fact that their spending in the last 2 seasons has been significantly reduced and they are still doing well speaks volumes for the business acumen there.

Believe it or not, I don't dislike Man U. They are one of the most successful English teams ever and they still retain a fantastic team ethos that we should all learn from BUT you have your faults and it would be so good to hear a few fans actually acknowledge them from time to time. Besides Man U fans are the easiest fans in the world to wind up

[TheCunningStunt]

Originally Posted by jackhammer

BUT you have your faults and it would be so good to hear a few fans actually acknowledge them from time to time. Besides Man U fans are the easiest fans in the world to wind up

I think the green and gold campaign combined with United fans wanting glazer's head on a plate is acknowledgement enough.

He's gonna diiiie
He's gonna diiiie
Malcolm Glazer's gonna die
How we kill him I don't know
Cut him up from head to toe
All I know is Glazer's gonna die.

[Bulldog]

To change the subject slightly;

BBC Sport - Football - John Terry out of Montenegro qualifier with back injury

^ All of a sudden, I fancy our chances on Tuesday a lot more. Now, if only Gareth Barry could injure himself too...

[right-track]

Originally Posted by jackhammer

^^^^
According to this site which u have given as an example:

Sadly, the high profile leveraged buy-outs of two of the league’s highest profile clubs, Liverpool and Manchester United, has shown us the other end of the spectrum. In both cases, US investors with no interest in football have used debt financing to purchase the clubs simply to line their own pockets.

I think we already established that in earlier posts and it's common knowledge too. Hardly news.
Not sure what the purpose of pointing that out was, Lee.

Originally Posted by jackhammer

Villa are 93m in debt but that is 'Indicates soft loans (i.e. loans provided by benefactors with reduced or no interest)'
Man Utd are 717m in debt and the interest is nearly 70 m whilst Villa's is less than £400,000

Your profits are way too low though. Good luck shifting the £93M.
The purpose of the link was to point out to other club fans, such as yourself, that they're not whiter than white either.
UEFA have introduced a ruling that will only allows clubs to compete in Europe that spend within their profit margin.

Originally Posted by jackhammer

What I am saying is that a severe financial hit along the line for Man u will seriously hinder their stability whereas Villa's 'Sugar Daddy' has barely borrowed a penny and although it's hard for fans to take, we have barely spent anything in the last transfer market because we just couldn't afford it.

On the other hand, United have spent and within their profit margin.
Any severe financial hit will could prove disastrous to clubs who can't service their debt.
United not being one of them...at the moment.

Originally Posted by jackhammer

Away from this my point was that it's always the jealousy card thrown at anyone time and time again if you dare to criticise Man Utd.

The criticism aimed at United has only been evident since the club began winning honours in the early nineties.
I don't recall anyone hating United in the mid 70's and all the way through the 80's.
Instead, as I recall, it was Liverpool's similar domination of English football that was the cause of hatred from all quarters.
Wonder why that was?

Originally Posted by jackhammer

As for the 'Chelsea were crap before 2004' holds no weight for me. Chelsea and the Glenn Hoddle era brought us Ruud Gullit, Zola, Di Matteo and a virtual rebuilding of the stadium long before Abramovich. The fact that their spending in the last 2 seasons has been significantly reduced and they are still doing well speaks volumes for the business acumen there.

No, they weren't crap. Calling them crap would be a little harsh.
Mediocre at best.
Take a quick look at Chelsea's honours prior to the Abramovich era and tell me they had a long and glorious history.

Originally Posted by jackhammer

Believe it or not, I don't dislike Man U. They are one of the most successful English teams ever and they still retain a fantastic team ethos that we should all learn from BUT you have your faults and it would be so good to hear a few fans actually acknowledge them from time to time. Besides Man U fans are the easiest fans in the world to wind up

This is unfair. United's "faults" are no fault of their own.
Since the 50's United have been building a reputation for attractive, exciting attacking football.
The Busby Babes by all accounts were out of this world. Had it not been for the Munich Air Disaster they may well have gone on to dominate Europe well into the 60's.
Busby's 60's team of Law, Best and Charlton took the name of Manchester United to an unparalleled level making them world famous. It was during this era that United's massive fan base was cemented.
And don't listen to the bittermen's claim of City being supported by locals only and how there are more City fans in Manchester, than there are United fans.
Unless you believe years of success as opposed to years of failure somehow has the opposite effect in a city that loves football.

As we know, the 70's and 80's were a mixed bag, but the brand of attacking football was still evident making United one of the most entertaining teams to watch in English football. A tradition only matched by Spurs IMO.

The Alex Ferguson era saw the league won with kids. Home grown players, some of which are still in the team today. Giggs, Scholes, Neville and that ethos continues to the present day.
The backbone of United's success was built on that philosophy. Not on the chequebook philosophy of Chelsea and more lately, City.
The money United spent on big money players was with the hard earned success of the clubs glorious past and not on the whim of a sugar daddy!

And finally. We acknowledge only too well how a businessman can buy a club and then strip it's assets to finance his debt at the expense of what was once a self sufficient football institution and what was for years the richest club in the world.

You say you don't hate United Lee, yet on more than one occasion on these boards, I've seen you refer to United and it's fans as "scum".
And yet you expect me to believe that your dislike of the club is based purely on it's financial affairs.

Maybe the fans of Villa and others need to change the words of...

We hate Man U and we hate Man U
We hate Man U and we hate Man U
We hate Man U and we hate Man U
We are the Man U haters!

...by substituting the word Man U with Glazer.

We may even join in.