Guybrush

I do realize all that, but I'm still a little curious to see what people will come up with

Actually, I did check it out and as far as myths go, this one is rather vague. The page I read couldn't tell me why it was supposed to be better, only that it was. It spent most of it's text trying to explain why the number 432 is significant. It used a bunch of reasons, one of my favourites being this one :

"500 doors and 40 there are,
I ween, in Valhalla's walls;
800 fighters through each door fare,
When to war with the Wolf they go."

Now, take 500 - add 40 and multiply that by 800 -> 500+40*800 = 432000

Oh my god!

The writer does not seem to mind where this little rhyme comes from (I don't remember it from anywhere), he or she does not mind that it seems a little silly that you have to construct the mathematics in a particular way, I mean .. 500-40*800 = 368000, so clearly that must be a holy number too and everything else you can do with those numbers. Finally, the writer doesn't seem to mind that 432000 is not in fact the number 432.

Usually there's some sense behind myths, but this is pretty flaky. The page also tries to reason that if A was 432, then D wouldn't be a frequency with an infinite number. However, a sound wave isn't a number and I don't think it cares if it's number would be infinite or not and I don't think there are any audible repercussions, so that seems pretty silly too.

It's going on about how one used to tune in 432 and after a bit of research, it seems the myth might stem from pythagorean tuning, a tuning theory that indeed has been used. There doesn't seem to be any kind of mystery tied to it though. If you wanna know where this myth might come from, throw a glance at this -> Pythagorean tuning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Something Completely Different

ausforest

It's not a case of better or worse, it's a matter of taste, and whilst I wont say that tuning an instrument at 432Hz will always sound better but if you can use it well, you can get some great, unique sounding music

GuitarBizarre

Um. No. You can get the EXACT SAME MUSIC, just tuned an infinitismal amount lower. It doesn't change the mathematical relationships between the notes in any way whatsoever.

As a case in point, production techniques in the 80's resulted in many albums being accidentally tuned down by a quarter tone or so, including megadeth's 'peace sells...but who's buying?', some older exodus, older metallica, etc which, to play along with in tune, you have to set your concert A on the tuner, to 430Hz, or just below, in the region of 427.8Hz.

The fact that these albums are tuned down a quarter tone doesn't make them any better or worse, it just makes them TUNED SLIGHTLY LOWER.

Just the same as tuning down a half step results in music of EXACTLY THE SAME EFFECT, except that now the vocalist isn't straining their voice.


Anyone who thinks they can identify tuning that precisely as an actual effect, has far, far better hearing than any audiophile or musician I have ever met. And by that, I mean 'Doesn't actually have good hearing at all, just a literal imagination and a lot of gullibility'

Edit - As an aside, my tuner allows me to tune to 432Hz if need be. I challenge ANYONE ON EARTH to listen to two recording of me playing guitar for a minute in both tunings, and identify which was which, let alone tell me which was better solely because of the tuning.

Think I won't? Then you should bear in mind that I did almost EXACTLY that on another forum when debating solid state recording vs analogue. I recorded my line 6 pod going through 16 different patches, all of which with speaker and poweramp emulation, and asked the so called 'tone purists' of the forum to identify which were analogue and which were solid state.

Surprise surprise, a whole bunch of those pretentious ****s assumed that I had used a valve amp in some of the clips. They cried all kinds of foul when I 'revealed' that it was ALL solid state, and that their so called golden ears were lying to them.

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Now playing: Parliament - Ride On
via FoxyTunes

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Freebase Dali

GB, thank you. You said it better than I could.
I think people should take a class on audio fundamentals before even being allowed to speak about it or publicly form an opinion.

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ausforest

Changing the tuning of an instrument has subtle effects on the relationships of the harmonics and the timbre of the sound, very subtle yes, but it is different, which was my point, i'm not defending the 432Hz theory or saying that it's better or worse, but merely different and that there is an audible difference between the two sounds.

GuitarBizarre

So are you saying you want me to record two improvisations at the two reference tunings and put you to the test? You're talking absolute crap. Its not possible to tell the difference in ANY WAY except that the pitch is very slightly lower.

Not different note relationships, not tonally different, no change in effect or perception of pitch in the listener, no alteration to the timbre of the instrument. An analogue signal is an analogue signal.

By being analogue, it has INFINITE resolution and can be divided into an infinite number of smalelr frequencies. This FACT means that doubling the frequency of an A at 440Hz, or an A at 432Hz, produces EXACTLY the same effect. That effect being a note exactly one octave higher than the reference.

All musical note relationships are based on fractions. You halve the frequency to go down an octave, and double it to go up one. Everything in between is also a fraction relationship exactly the same way.

The human ear percieves changes in pitch as logarithmic. What this means is that changes of the same fraction, are percieved by our ears EXACTLY THE SAME WAY regardless of the starting point. Even people with perfect pitch, percieve the same amount of pitch difference to a note, if you say, quadruple the frequency. Perfect pitch, 440Hz, 432Hz, 428.7Hz, no matter WHAT the starting point, EVERYONE ON EARTH WITH FUNCTIONING EARS will percieve a two octave pitch increase.

If you were to tune alternatively and expect a difference in timbre, you would have to CHANGE THE RELATIONSHIPS WITHIN THE TUNING. Changing just the starting reference point does NOTHING to change that and NEVER WILL.

Now read these and LEARN WHAT THE **** TUNING ACTUALLY IS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntonic_temperament

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Guybrush

How so? If you construct a sequence of numbers by starting at 2 and then adding two to every number after, say 2 - 4 - 6 - 8 .. You can say the relationship between the numbers is that they are all 2 apart. That relationship won't change even if you lower the starting number to 1.

2 - 4 - 6 - 8
1 - 3 - 5 - 7

The relationship is still two numbers apart. By the same logic, wouldn't the relationship of harmonics still be the same? I mean, the myth here is not that it's a change in the relationships in tuning between notes, only that you drop the A to 432, similar in my example to dropping 2 to 1.

edit :

Oops, sorry for repeating your point GB. Everyone else read his post!

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Something Completely Different

Rainfall

The only possible reason to alter the tuning is perhaps MAYBE theres an infinitesimal change in how certains notes will resonate. I can see this helpful in certain cases; my crappy stratocaster sometimes resonates on certain frets in a bad way, making my amp peak because of the big increase in certain harmonics.

Oh wait, that's probably because I have a crappy guitar. Why the hell do you want to change the tuning like this?!

Hm I suppose it may give your music a little bit of a different feel, but most people probably wouldn't ever even know unless they tried to play along and noticed that they had to tune their guitar slightly lower. Whoop-de-doo.

I think this whole thread has been over-analysed by now though.

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Rule #7 – Trust only when trusted.