Music Banter

Go Back   Music Banter > Artists Corner > Stereo & Production Equipment
Register Blogging Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Welcome to Music Banter Forum! Make sure to register - it's free and very quick! You have to register before you can post and participate in our discussions with over 70,000 other registered members. After you create your free account, you will be able to customize many options, you will have the full access to over 1,100,000 posts.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-16-2013, 03:18 AM   #11 (permalink)
 
Zer0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 3,791
Default

What good is having a quality setup when you are going to use it to listen to crap music. Having a quality hi-fi rig does not make you a bigger fan of THE MUSIC. A person listening to mp3s on a PC with an affordable pair of headphones is not in anyway incapable of having a varied and refined taste in music, which is that's more important.

If you're going to tell us that people aren't capable of feeling fulfillment from music by listening to it on their iPods or smartphones then you are full of pretentious rubbish. Not to say that I'm against good sound quality, I have a decent enough hi-fi rig, some decent speakers and some decent headphones. But I'd happily listen to music on my laptop or iPod just as much as long as I'm listening to something really great.
__________________
Zer0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 08:21 AM   #12 (permalink)
Music Addict
 
edwardc77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 128
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freebase Dali View Post
Hmmm...

Ok.

First off, no matter the bitrate of their MP3s or otherwise, if they're listening on laptop speakers, they'll still be highly limited by the range of frequencies those speakers can produce. If listening solely via that method, bitrate is not really going to matter much... so I guess the rest of this will be assuming that the listener has listening equipment that can accurately translate what's going on in their audio.

1. You're assuming that everyone buying MP3s are buying 128 kbps versions. This would be a colossal mistake. 320 kbps is generally the bitrate any digital download is now offering for sale. While there is a measure of compression involved in any MP3 compression, I challenge you to offer up a 320 kbps vs. WAV format of the same material in a blind test and see if anyone can tell the difference. If you can, I challenge you to be challenged to the same test where you don't know the outcome.
I also challenge you to coming up with a self-test that compares a flac version of an original WAV file compared to a 320 kbps MP3 file and tell the difference over multiple iterations. Please let us know how that works out for you.

2. While you may be correct in some cases, you are not correct in all. And until you can provide evidence that you've heard every remastered album ever existing, I will assume your statement is based on the bad experience you've perceived yourself to have, while completely disregarding any positive experiences you've chosen to forget. Not to mention all the experiences you've never had.

3. While I agree that consumer-level listening equipment tends to be over-hyped, sonically inflated garbage, I think it's more than fallacious to assume that because your listening goals are your own, that everyone else's should be the same. Some folks just like to hear their music extra bassy and extra screechy. If that wasn't the case, every listening solution out there would present a dead flat response. The job as audio engineers is not to put them down for their preferences. The job is to make the audio they listen to translate well no matter what their preferences.

Part 2:

I don't know why you're recommending flash memory cards. There is a such thing as hard drives. This is completely capable of storing audio files no matter what format or bitrate, and probably has more capacity than a flash card. The memory card recommendation you made is completely asinine.

Secondly, you mention a certain pair of headphones as situationally optimum. If you knew anything about stereo field and true reproduction of such, you wouldn't be recommending headphones at all. But since you're obviously talking about a portable solution, I will let this slide, even though your solution is largely dictated by your own preference, since if you were the authoritative individual on the subject, I'd probably have read your publication, or you would have posted it.

Finally, you mention a specific player to obtain optimal results for this portable solution, but I've yet to see any evidence provided by you that one player can translate a standard audio file better than the next. When you're ready with that dissertation, let me know.

Part 3:

You basically provided an arbitrary, expensive solution to listening to music on laptop speakers. If anyone follows your advice, they will notice an increase in sound quality via the mere fact that they are no longer listening to the music on laptop speakers. I could probably achieve the same effect, unnoticable by them to any degree, simply offering a headphone solution plugged straight into their laptop.
What you THINK you're doing, is incorrect.
And I THINK that if you're unwilling to acknowledge that fact, then you should keep your absurd and unnecessary directives to yourself, so you don't have people making unnecessary purchases just to adhere to your perspective of how audio should be enjoyed.

Thanks, and have a nice day.
I’ll give you a reply but next time read what I have written more carefully.


1: I didn’t assume that everyone buying mp3s will be buying 128kbps files. I assumed that most people, (especially those who download their music illegally) will have a lot of those files on their pc.
Yes provided you have decent equipment most people can tell the difference between mp3s (even 320Kbps) and an uncompressed format. I can tell the difference even with bad equipment, but that’s my job.

2: I never said that I always correct in all cases. I even said that there were exceptions like for jazz and classical music. But when we are talking about rock and pop records from the last 25 years its 95% safe to assume that the music has been brickwalled.


3: The job of a good audio engineer should be towards audio fidelity. You wouldn’t buy a TV that gave you a blurry picture, right?

Part 2
I recommended flash memory cards because it was part of my portable system.
I mentioned headphones because the budget I proposed was of 100 dollars, with that kind of money real speakers could not be afforded.
No, I’m not an authoritative figure (whatever that means) ,I don’t do publications because I’m not a researcher, as I said I’m an Electronic Engineer my dissertation was on Gaussian Noise. Do you know what a dissertation is ? It’s a lengthy and formal academic paper, you don’t do dissertations on generic topics, like media players, at least not in Science.
May I know your credentials?
Regarding any evidence provided by me that one player can translate a standard audio file better than the next. …well I used my ears, just like I did for the headphones and in many cases that was more than enough.

Part 3
Of course my solution is arbitrary, it’s my personal opinion.
If you ask me if you could achieve the same effect by just simply plugging in the headphones to your laptop, my answer is maybe. I don’t know what kind of computer you have, how old it is and the quality of your sound card, so it’s not something that I can guarantee for everyone.
__________________
Thought he lost everything then he lost a whole lot more....

Last edited by edwardc77; 04-16-2013 at 09:12 AM.
edwardc77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 08:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
Music Addict
 
edwardc77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 128
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zer0 View Post
What good is having a quality setup when you are going to use it to listen to crap music. Having a quality hi-fi rig does not make you a bigger fan of THE MUSIC. A person listening to mp3s on a PC with an affordable pair of headphones is not in anyway incapable of having a varied and refined taste in music, which is that's more important.

If you're going to tell us that people aren't capable of feeling fulfillment from music by listening to it on their iPods or smartphones then you are full of pretentious rubbish. Not to say that I'm against good sound quality, I have a decent enough hi-fi rig, some decent speakers and some decent headphones. But I'd happily listen to music on my laptop or iPod just as much as long as I'm listening to something really great.
You're right, Iím not a pure audiophile, and for me the music comes first.
Always.
However if music is a big part of your life it would make sense to invest some time and money to make your listening experience more enjoyable with better quality system. You know....if you like cars, you would enjoy a Ferrari more than a Buick, if youíre a big moviegoer than Blu Rays are important, and if you like music, well then, a good stereo should be important as well.
__________________
Thought he lost everything then he lost a whole lot more....
edwardc77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 12:36 PM   #14 (permalink)
Al Dente
 
SATCHMO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,689
Default

In the case with 320kbps mp3 vs. any sort of lossless file the difference in audio quality is rarely perceptible to human ears and even then the difference can only be discerned by a discerning ear with ever part of the signal chain being of high quality: recording>music player>DAC>amplification>transducer (headphone, speaker). The sampling rate of the file plays a much bigger factor in sound quality, but sadly most people don't have DACs that will deal with 24 or 32 bit integers.

Okay, as far as portable music players go, if you you want to dish out $830 on an iBasso DX-100, more power to you. I've done A/B tests with my iPhone through a line out dock into my Fiio E17 portable amp/DAC into my Hifiman HE400 planar-magnetic headphones (through this method, the iPhone's internal amp is bypassed, but it's DAC is still utilized) compared to my Macbook Pro's USB> Fiio E17 (bypassing both the MBP's amp and DAC) and the differences were beyond negligible. Even still, on a lower impedence pair of headphones or in-ear monitors which require less power to drive, the sonic differences between the line out of my iPhone into the E17 and taking the signal directly from the iPhone's headphone jack are equally, if not more negligible. Apple puts very good internal components in their products.

I liked my Skullcandy Titans. Sure, one can really do better, but I also owned the Klipsch S4i and found that the issues it had with sibilance in the 8-12k region made them completely unlistenable. I'd much more recommend spending $100 on a pair of Thinksound TS02s or MS01s. They're a small, American company run by the chief engineer and he responds to any and all customer service requests, including my own, personally. I sent him an email when I purchased the MS01 telling him I was sad that I'd lost the only pair of tips for the TS02s that fit my ears. He quickly replied asking what sized I used, and when he shipped the MS01s he sent 10 pairs in my size! Sure, they're roughly double the price of the Klipsch, but you can't bitch about sound quality and at the same time not be willing to part with some money.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord
And if you're getting bored then feel free to go give Eddie Vedder a handjob.
SATCHMO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 12:54 PM   #15 (permalink)
Music Addict
 
XtremeEclectic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: SC
Posts: 67
Default

Good quality speakers and systems are easily obtainable in a low budget, depending on what you are stepping up from of course. Someone going from their laptop speakers, or apple earbuds would hear a dramatic difference stepping up to say my Pioneer cs-70s (easily found under 40 bucks) and running of a garage sale integrated. As far as the kbps and that whole thing on here. It depends on how critical of a listener you really are. For me I am about the mid range critic wise. however from personal experience I have had friends not able to tell the difference from 128-flac and had others that can tell the difference in my car between 128 downloaded to the iphone, and 320 played through mog. It really really depends on the end users style and preference. Personally I think that the OP had a good, basic, inexpensive upgrade from say an ipod and a pair of apple buds but within the 100 dollar price range there are better methods available if you are patient, heck I paid 75 bucks for my amp and tuner I am using ATM
XtremeEclectic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 01:53 PM   #16 (permalink)
Music Addict
 
edwardc77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 128
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SATCHMO View Post
In the case with 320kbps mp3 vs. any sort of lossless file the difference in audio quality is rarely perceptible to human ears and even then the difference can only be discerned by a discerning ear with ever part of the signal chain being of high quality: recording>music player>DAC>amplification>transducer (headphone, speaker). The sampling rate of the file plays a much bigger factor in sound quality, but sadly most people don't have DACs that will deal with 24 or 32 bit integers.

Okay, as far as portable music players go, if you you want to dish out $830 on an iBasso DX-100, more power to you. I've done A/B tests with my iPhone through a line out dock into my Fiio E17 portable amp/DAC into my Hifiman HE400 planar-magnetic headphones (through this method, the iPhone's internal amp is bypassed, but it's DAC is still utilized) compared to my Macbook Pro's USB> Fiio E17 (bypassing both the MBP's amp and DAC) and the differences were beyond negligible. Even still, on a lower impedence pair of headphones or in-ear monitors which require less power to drive, the sonic differences between the line out of my iPhone into the E17 and taking the signal directly from the iPhone's headphone jack are equally, if not more negligible. Apple puts very good internal components in their products.

I liked my Skullcandy Titans. Sure, one can really do better, but I also owned the Klipsch S4i and found that the issues it had with sibilance in the 8-12k region made them completely unlistenable. I'd much more recommend spending $100 on a pair of Thinksound TS02s or MS01s. They're a small, American company run by the chief engineer and he responds to any and all customer service requests, including my own, personally. I sent him an email when I purchased the MS01 telling him I was sad that I'd lost the only pair of tips for the TS02s that fit my ears. He quickly replied asking what sized I used, and when he shipped the MS01s he sent 10 pairs in my size! Sure, they're roughly double the price of the Klipsch, but you can't bitch about sound quality and at the same time not be willing to part with some money.
As I said,the budget was a $100 for a full system,starting from scratch. I agree with you ,Thinksound is a good brand. The more money you have to spend than the more options you have. Lots of people here think that Flac is some sort of advanced eccentric luxury standard,but it's only Cd quality,which was the norm until all these compressed codecs came out.
__________________
Thought he lost everything then he lost a whole lot more....

Last edited by edwardc77; 04-16-2013 at 02:10 PM.
edwardc77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 05:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
Partying on the inside
 
Freebase Dali's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,329
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc77 View Post
I’ll give you a reply but next time read what I have written more carefully.
I could say the same to you.

Quote:
1: I didn’t assume that everyone buying mp3s will be buying 128kbps files. I assumed that most people, (especially those who download their music illegally) will have a lot of those files on their pc.
Yes provided you have decent equipment most people can tell the difference between mp3s (even 320Kbps) and an uncompressed format. I can tell the difference even with bad equipment, but that’s my job.
You told people outright not to listen to, buy, or download MP3s. So if you're assuming that most people will have a lot of 128kbps MP3s on your computer, you're basically telling to scrap the lot of them... OR you're telling them to buy better gear so they can better hear the crappiness of their existing collection, with the caveat of making future acquisitions lossless ones, knowing full well that most of these people you're speaking about are not you and don't have your job, so wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the first place.

I don't argue that people shouldn't upgrade their equipment from objectively bad scenarios. I just think it's ridiculous to recommend that they scrap their entire collections and upgrade their systems because you think you can hear a difference between a 320kbps MP3 and lossless formats.

Be realistic.
Quote:
2: I never said that I always correct in all cases. I even said that there were exceptions like for jazz and classical music. But when we are talking about rock and pop records from the last 25 years its 95% safe to assume that the music has been brickwalled.
And I will maintain that your assumptions are merely that. Assumptions. And until you provide waveforms for remasters of 95% of all albums recorded in the last 25 years, apart from Jazz and Classical, then I'm going to make the assumption that your mandate of not buying a remastered album is unreasonable and based on personal bias, especially if the listener likes the remastered album, which is just as legitimate a reason for buying it as is your reason for not.

Quote:
3: The job of a good audio engineer should be towards audio fidelity. You wouldn’t buy a TV that gave you a blurry picture, right?
How on earth is an audio engineer going to do his job, as per your description of it, without all the people listening to the audio having the same equipment as he has? Is the job of an audio engineer to convince people to buy top-of-the-line gear? No. Any mixing or mastering engineer knows that the end listener will probably not be listening to a mix in the best of circumstances, and he would be out of a job if he did. Therefore, it is the job of an audio engineer not only to make the mix as good as it can be in the best of scenarios, but also the worst. Dictating the listening formats and mediums is not part of his job, and any engineer thinking it is, is highly delusional.

Quote:
Part 2
I recommended flash memory cards because it was part of my portable system.
I mentioned headphones because the budget I proposed was of 100 dollars, with that kind of money real speakers could not be afforded.
No, I’m not an authoritative figure (whatever that means) ,I don’t do publications because I’m not a researcher, as I said I’m an Electronic Engineer my dissertation was on Gaussian Noise. Do you know what a dissertation is ? It’s a lengthy and formal academic paper, you don’t do dissertations on generic topics, like media players, at least not in Science.
May I know your credentials?
Regarding any evidence provided by me that one player can translate a standard audio file better than the next. …well I used my ears, just like I did for the headphones and in many cases that was more than enough.
If you want to play the semantics game and refuse to actually address the point behind my response by deflecting, fine. You should research the concept of sarcasm for your next dissertation...

Regarding your ears and your perception, they don't translate to the rest of the world, no matter how much your ego would like it to. You obviously know this, because your initial post set you as the authority of what everyone else was doing wrong, so at least some part of you knows that you're attempting to "educate" these people into purchasing what you want them to purchase simply because you declare that it sounds better to you, and therefore must be true, and all these other people are living in sonic ignorance and suffering.

I understand that you may have very good reasoning for encouraging people to listen to higher quality audio via higher quality audio equipment. But the moment you start dictating that everyone's 320kbps MP3s are not good enough for YOU is where you draw the line between them and you, and you should remember that.
Quote:
Part 3
Of course my solution is arbitrary, it’s my personal opinion.
If you ask me if you could achieve the same effect by just simply plugging in the headphones to your laptop, my answer is maybe. I don’t know what kind of computer you have, how old it is and the quality of your sound card, so it’s not something that I can guarantee for everyone.
The bolded part is the point.
As for the rest, I don't use a laptop. My studio runs on a very capable PC. My audio interface is an Echo Audiofire 12, and has pretty decent DACs. (it's not an Apollo 16, but it ain't no slouch)
My studio monitors aren't Genelecs or anything, but they're also no KRK's either.

I say this to say that I am not listening in the typical scenario you describe. And since I have been involved with project audio engineering for 14 years, I do feel like I have at least a bit of a reference point. I'm just saying that from my perspective, and knowing the perspectives of common end-listeners, I can safely say that when it comes to the average listener, the expectations of the audio engineer has to meet the limitations of the listener at least half-way.
Otherwise, you're simply getting those barely perceptible increases in quality out to the minority of who is actually consuming the material you are producing.

I don't think it's a bad thing, necessarily. I just think it's misguided to assume that because the majority may be not appreciating every single iota of representation as was meant by the engineer, that it's the engineer's job to dictate to that majority the methods by which to rectify it.
Particularly when that majority isn't going to appreciate the difference.

Again. Be realistic.
If you're an unrealistic audio engineer, you're a very useless audio engineer.
__________________
Freebase Dali is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 09:00 AM   #18 (permalink)
Music Addict
 
edwardc77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 128
Default

I guess we could go on debating for ever...we clearly have to different opinions on this. fair enough-
__________________
Thought he lost everything then he lost a whole lot more....
edwardc77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 03:47 PM   #19 (permalink)
Acattin Sane
 
Fluff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: The Black Country
Posts: 8,389
Default

Can someone recommend a way to listen to vinyl please? I've got about 80 given to me by my dad. I'd like to listen to them but don't want to spend a bomb for a sound system.
__________________
Fluff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 05:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
Music Addict
 
edwardc77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 128
Default

Unfortunately good turntables can be expensive....what's your budget ?
__________________
Thought he lost everything then he lost a whole lot more....
edwardc77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



© 2003-2019 Advameg, Inc.

SEO by vBSEO 3.5.2 ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.