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Old 08-30-2010, 03:12 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Actually yes, we did get into an argument about that. I said that 'Adore' was the peak of Billy's songwriting ability, and you thought 'Machina II' was even better, or something like that, and then we posted song lyrics from each of them.

Yeah, Machina is underrated, songs like "I Of The Mourning" and "Stand Inside Your Love" are up there with The Pumpkins bests, and Machina II has possibly my favorite Iha song, "Go."

To this day, I still wonder what the tracklisting for Machina would be if Billy got his way and it was a double album.
Oh yeah, that was it. I was in a very argumentative mood and I had just listened to Machina II. I do think Machina II was his peak as far as songwriting and pop sensibility, but Adore in general does have better songwriting. Machina II is a bit more accessible. My opinion on this always shifts, though, depending on my mood.

I think we all got ripped off because Machina wasn't a double album. It was supposed to be another loose concept album (like MCIS) about a rockstar named Glass...that's about all I know. Instead, we only have vague hints of what was supposed to go into it (like Glass and the Ghost Children).
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:10 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Oh yeah, that was it. I was in a very argumentative mood and I had just listened to Machina II. I do think Machina II was his peak as far as songwriting and pop sensibility, but Adore in general does have better songwriting. Machina II is a bit more accessible. My opinion on this always shifts, though, depending on my mood.

I think we all got ripped off because Machina wasn't a double album. It was supposed to be another loose concept album (like MCIS) about a rockstar named Glass...that's about all I know. Instead, we only have vague hints of what was supposed to go into it (like Glass and the Ghost Children).
If Billy had done Machina directly after MCIS, I bet the record company would have fully supported the idea. I still think some of the songs on Machina I should have been replaced with stuff from Machina II. For example, cut "Raindrops + Sunshowers," and maybe "With Every Light" and add "Slow Dawn" and "Lucky 13" or "Dross." Machina needed some more rockers in my opinion.
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:24 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Did Jimmy have a drug problom during the making of Gish?
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Did Jimmy have a drug problom during the making of Gish?
He was probably taking drugs during Gish but it didn't really become a big problem until 95/96 during the Mellon Collie tour.
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
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If Billy had done Machina directly after MCIS, I bet the record company would have fully supported the idea. I still think some of the songs on Machina I should have been replaced with stuff from Machina II. For example, cut "Raindrops + Sunshowers," and maybe "With Every Light" and add "Slow Dawn" and "Lucky 13" or "Dross." Machina needed some more rockers in my opinion.
I've had a good 10 years to absorb Machina I and I've decided that I actually like it just the way it is. The only reason you might get the feeling it needs more rockers is because of the length...try starting the album after "Heavy Metal Machine" and I promise those later songs will sound a lot better to your ears. Billy was never one to throw in a song just because it was a quick fix. He always tried to stick to his concept and put in what fit more, not what was more catchy (which is why I forgive him for clunkers like "We Only Go Out At Night"). Everytime a b-sides release came out, there were albums worth of songs that were just as good if not better than what was on the studio albums. Machina I was meant to be a very progressive album and punchy numbers like "Lucky 13" or "Dross" would have been too out of place.

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Did Jimmy have a drug problom during the making of Gish?
It started escalating during Gish and the band recorded Siamese Dream in Georgia just to get Jimmy away from his contacts. He still managed to find more hook ups, especially since he was under such a huge amount of stress (according to Billy, Butch Vig wanted nothing less than perfection and Jimmy wasn't used to recording under such stringency). It came to a head during the MCIS tour when he and their keyboardist OD'd in a hotel room (the keyboardist died, Jimmy didn't).
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:21 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I've had a good 10 years to absorb Machina I and I've decided that I actually like it just the way it is. The only reason you might get the feeling it needs more rockers is because of the length...try starting the album after "Heavy Metal Machine" and I promise those later songs will sound a lot better to your ears. Billy was never one to throw in a song just because it was a quick fix. He always tried to stick to his concept and put in what fit more, not what was more catchy (which is why I forgive him for clunkers like "We Only Go Out At Night"). Everytime a b-sides release came out, there were albums worth of songs that were just as good if not better than what was on the studio albums. Machina I was meant to be a very progressive album and punchy numbers like "Lucky 13" or "Dross" would have been too out of place.
You know, now that you say that, it reminds that the length of Machina really does get on my nerves sometimes, but oddly enough, Adore never did. Maybe it is because I just like Adore better.

The whole concept of Machina was a bit in pieces though, due to the fact he was forced to make it a single album.

Also you meant "We Only Come Out At Night."
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Also you meant "We Only Come Out At Night."
Shows you how much I enjoy that song.
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Shows you how much I enjoy that song.
We only come out at night, we only come out at night, the days are much too bri-i-ight, we only come out at night!

Come on duga, you know you love it! It is the Pumpkins own "Yellow Submarine."
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:24 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Ssssshhh. I have nightmares about that song. I really don't know what possessed Billy to write that song or the record company to approve of it. I surely assume it's there to make the rest of Melon Collie sound better
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Old 09-03-2010, 08:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Maybe. Heh. But I still would've put "Set the Ray to Jerry" or "The Last Song" in its place.

Anyway, I really like Adore for the most part. As for the Machinas though... especially between them, there's probably a great album there, but neither Machina or Machina II is all that great the way it stands. There are a few songs that work really well with the treatment they're given ("Vanity," "Wound") but as whole albums they just sound too... homogenized for me--everything's kind of fuzzed out and glossy which prevents songs from standing out the way they did on prior records (MICS especially).

Anyway, intrigued for the rest of this.
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