The Constructive Ideas Thread

[Black Francis]

@Dj

look i do understand that but even if we don't like each other we can choose to not be constantly fighting it's not like it's outta of our hands..

honestly, as a person that doesn't know alot of ppl here im *****n confused why ppl are ganging up against other ppl here, always making somebody "the bad guy" and then pouncing on he everything he says..

Wheter its Vegangelica here or Sopsych, though idk these ppl well they don't seem like trolls even when they raise a valid point ppl are like "Nope, it won't work idiot" and even they do concede a point and even try to be nice ppl are still "Nope, shut up idiot"

Don't tell me this is unavoidable, Ofc it is!
things don't have to be that way we choose to make it so YES naive me wishes we could all get along cause i don't want to come to a website where everything i say is miscontrued and used as fuel for more drama.

[GuitarBizarre]

Originally Posted by Black Francis

@Dj

look i do understand that but even if we don't like each other we can choose to not be constantly fighting it's not like it's outta of our hands..

honestly, as a person that doesn't know alot of ppl here im *****n confused why ppl are ganging up against other ppl here, always making somebody "the bad guy" and then pouncing on he everything he says..

Wheter its Vegangelica here or Sopsych, though idk these ppl well they don't seem like trolls even when they raise a valid point ppl are like "Nope, it won't work idiot" and even they do concede a point and even try to be nice ppl are still "Nope, shut up idiot"

Don't tell me this is unavoidable, Ofc it is!
things don't have to be that way we choose to make it so YES naive me wishes we could all get along cause i don't want to come to a website where everything i say is miscontrued and used as fuel for more drama.

I am not making veg the bad guy. I am responding to veg's points by being as clear as possible as to why they don't work, don't apply, or are unrealistic. People aren't "Ganging up" by supporting my view, they are echoing it - they are showing agreement so that we can form a consensus and get things done.

If they didn't do that and it was just a debate between me and veg, how far could we possibly get? It'd just be an endless discussion with a silent audience that never got to say anything themselves and nobody would be sure of who stood where.

[Black Francis]

@GB

i wasn't trying to point fingers at you GB i think this goes beyond just you i was referring more to the mindset of this community when it comes to creating drama and looking for reasons to argue
i don't like how it becomes the focus of everything and most of the time nothing gets resolved, sure they ban a few ppl and use them as scapegoats but even after they get banned the problem still lingers on..

*sigh* i realise that no matter what i say it won't change anything so i'll stop indulging the drama myself just know i wasn't blaming you alone ok GB? im really in no position to blame anyone i was just commenting on all the arguing ive been seeing lately

[GuitarBizarre]

Originally Posted by Black Francis

@GB

i wasn't trying to point fingers at you GB i think this goes beyond just you i was referring more to the mindset of this community when it comes to creating drama and looking for reasons to argue
i don't like how it becomes the focus of everything and most of the time nothing gets resolved, sure they ban a few ppl and use them as scapegoats but even after they get banned the problem still lingers on..

*sigh* i realise that no matter what i say it won't change anything so i'll stop indulging the drama myself just know i wasn't blaming you alone ok GB? im really in no position to blame anyone i was just commenting on all the arguing ive been seeing lately

Nobody is creating drama. Drama is not heated debate or argument. Drama is not disagreement, and arguments or conflict are not bad things the mod team should be seeking to eradicate.

I think you and Vegangelica fail to understand that. You just don't seem to understand that an argument is not a bad thing and a heated argument isn't either.

The bad thing is when an argument grows to the scale or proportion that it causes problems in terms of actually achieving a resolution for the question at the heart of it.

Forcing people to be nicer will not solve that problem, it will just enforce a false state of hyper-civility which will further obfuscate any grey areas that our extant trolls are currently exploiting. As I explained before - to take that approach is, without a shadow of a doubt, only going to benefit the trolls themselves, as anyone who they succeed in annoying, will be rendered unable to voice that without themselves becoming the bad guy.

If that comes to pass, its nothing but a meal ticket for trolls. You'd just give them a weapon -

Enact any rules like that, and all a troll says is "Speak out against me, I dare you. I can infuriate you forever and as long as I'm grey area enough about it, I'm in no danger, but you speak up and I'll get you banned for being mean to me! I can cry to the mods about how you're attempting to dismiss and invalidate my opinion using that slur against me! HA! I'M UNTOUCHABLE!"

[Trollheart]

@GB: totally agree. It makes no sense whatever to muzzle ninety-nine percent of the population of MB and leave the other one percent free to bark, growl, piss on legs, crap on the ground and basically do everything and anything they want to. Treating trolls (other than me: I'm a good troll!) nicely will only result in their realising they can get away with more and more and eventually anything. This kind of bleeding heart utopian liberalism is fine in theory but doesn't work, not in the real world and not in the online world.

Trolls --- and be damned those who say I shouldn't use that word, because after all, call a spade a spade --- should have three choices if they want to disrupt a forum, thread, discussion or whatever.

1. Do that anyway but know there will be consequences. They will be swift, they will be final and they will not be nice.

2. Tone down what they're doing and try to act like responsible netizens

3. Get the hell out of town before the posse goes after them.

To expand on and use that loose metaphor in the final choice, what sort of sheriff sees a suspicious drifter come into town, shoot up the place, raise hell and upset everyone and when the angry townspeople come to him to ask what he's gonna do says "Now folks, these fellas just need some good ol' love an' understandin'! We can't be a-tramplin' on their rights y'see, no sir! Gotta live and let live. Why don't y'all just go on home? The boy don't mean no harm: he's just blowin' off steam. He'll stop, sooner or later. Maybe..."

Yeah. How long would that sheriff last in that town before someone took the law into their own hands? I'm not advocating a lynch mob or anything, but you have to clamp down hard on these people, because even after they've been warned, told they're disrupting things, had their points taken on board, agreed with in some cases (still doesn't placate some people --- whaddya mean, you're AGREEING with me? I take offence at that!) or refuted, they continue as they are, knowing or thinking they can't or won't be dealt with. And we need to show them they can and will.

NO to namby-pamby hand-holding psychobabble rehabilitation, YES to street justice! Okay then, just actual justice. It's not fair the larger percentage of the population has to suffer these idiots (yeah, sue me) who make all of our lives miserable; that's not what we come here for, is it?

Say it with me, brothers and sisters! We want our forum back!

[Neapolitan]

Originally Posted by Trollheart

@GB: totally agree. It makes no sense whatever to muzzle ninety-nine percent of the population of MB and leave the other one percent free to bark, growl, piss on legs, crap on the ground and basically do everything and anything they want to. Treating trolls (other than me: I'm a good troll!) nicely will only result in their realising they can get away with more and more and eventually anything. This kind of bleeding heart utopian liberalism is fine in theory but doesn't work, not in the real world and not in the online world.

Trolls --- and be damned those who say I shouldn't use that word, because after all, call a spade a spade --- should have three choices if they want to disrupt a forum, thread, discussion or whatever.

1. Do that anyway but know there will be consequences. They will be swift, they will be final and they will not be nice.

2. Tone down what they're doing and try to act like responsible netizens

3. Get the hell out of town before the posse goes after them.

To expand on and use that loose metaphor in the final choice, what sort of sheriff sees a suspicious drifter come into town, shoot up the place, raise hell and upset everyone and when the angry townspeople come to him to ask what he's gonna do says "Now folks, these fellas just need some good ol' love an' understandin'! We can't be a-tramplin' on their rights y'see, no sir! Gotta live and let live. Why don't y'all just go on home? The boy don't mean no harm: he's just blowin' off steam. He'll stop, sooner or later. Maybe..."

Yeah. How long would that sheriff last in that town before someone took the law into their own hands? I'm not advocating a lynch mob or anything, but you have to clamp down hard on these people, because even after they've been warned, told they're disrupting things, had their points taken on board, agreed with in some cases (still doesn't placate some people --- whaddya mean, you're AGREEING with me? I take offence at that!) or refuted, they continue as they are, knowing or thinking they can't or won't be dealt with. And we need to show them they can and will.

NO to namby-pamby hand-holding psychobabble rehabilitation, YES to street justice! Okay then, just actual justice. It's not fair the larger percentage of the population has to suffer these idiots (yeah, sue me) who make all of our lives miserable; that's not what we come here for, is it?

Say it with me, brothers and sisters! We want our forum back!

I don't think it cool to go after members by publicly calling for them being banned, because 1) if this site is import to another member I can't fathom wanting to take that away from them, and 2) if a person is that bad, then I think it would be better just to write a letter to a mod & present your case, and let the mods decide. I think a third party would most likely be less invested emotionally to the problem at hand and make a fair decision for both parties involved. We should to appeal to reason, just in case it's not that they're trolling but have a different opinions, or if there is a personality clash.

[Trollheart]

Where did you get that from? All I'm saying is mods should make it clear that no crap will be taken if a member tries to push it with trolling. They'll be dealt with, swiftly, by whatever means the mod(s) feel(s) appropriate.

I'm saying no more giving chance after chance and empty threats that are laughed at by those who have no intention of contributing constructively to threads or discussions and are only here to upset things. You need to know, you step out of line you're gonna get shot down.

That can hardly be deemed too extreme can it? Or am I just getting too old?

[djchameleon]

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

I don't think it cool to go after members by publicly calling for them being banned, because 1) if this site is import to another member I can't fathom wanting to take that away from them, and 2) if a person is that bad, then I think it would be better just to write a letter to a mod & present your case, and let the mods decide. I think a third party would most likely be less invested emotionally to the problem at hand and make a fair decision for both parties involved. We should to appeal to reason, just in case it's not that they're trolling but have a different opinions, or if there is a personality clash.

First I took what he said as an elaborate joke but he could be serious. hmmm.

[Neapolitan]

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Where did you get that from? All I'm saying is mods should make it clear that no crap will be taken if a member tries to push it with trolling. They'll be dealt with, swiftly, by whatever means the mod(s) feel(s) appropriate.

I'm saying no more giving chance after chance and empty threats that are laughed at by those who have no intention of contributing constructively to threads or discussions and are only here to upset things. You need to know, you step out of line you're gonna get shot down.

That can hardly be deemed too extreme can it? Or am I just getting too old?

Of course a regular members don't want to be hassled (or trolled) but what I was getting at is the concept of who's "trolling" can at times be subjective. That although I agree this site shouldn't be the fly-paper of internet trolls, at the same time, since this site is (or was) a place for an open discussion of about almost anything, where there is (once was) one of much varied opinions. Members who offer different opinion shouldn't be deemed as "trolls" as a ways and means for certain members to have the other toss out of the forum (of course it's not that simply done).

I guess you are calling for mods to be tougher on members who obviously troll. I wasn't commenting on what should be done with trollish members, although I think that should be left to the mods. I was talking (regular) member who would go about complaining and calling "troll" as if the other is trolling when in reality it's just a personal difference or an on-going clash of personalities etc (because of the parameters of the thread, I can't give names or talk about specifics).

[GuitarBizarre]

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

Of course a regular members don't want to be hassled (or trolled) but what I was getting at is the concept of who's "trolling" can at times be subjective. That although I agree this site shouldn't be the fly-paper of internet trolls, at the same time, since this site is (or was) a place for an open discussion of about almost anything, where there is (once was) one of much varied opinions. Members who offer different opinion shouldn't be deemed as "trolls" as a ways and means for certain members to have the other toss out of the forum (of course it's not that simply done).

I guess you are calling for mods to be tougher on members who obviously troll. I wasn't commenting on what should be done with trollish members, although I think that should be left to the mods. I was talking (regular) member who would go about complaining and calling "troll" as if the other is trolling when in reality it's just a personal difference or an on-going clash of personalities etc (because of the parameters of the thread, I can't give names or talk about specifics).

Let me make one thing very clear.

We do not have a problem where members of this site are using the word troll in order to invalidate others opinions.

We have a problem where members of this site are being forced to describe other members of this site as trolls due to their contentious, irritating or disruptive behaviour.

Telling people to be "careful" about using the word troll, or arguing that they should use the word troll, or words like it, does not solve the problem we actually have. It solves the problem we don't have, and makes it more difficult to punish those people responsible for the problem we do have.

End. Of. Story.