pc issue of the day pt. 4:33 isn't music

**Frownland** · 07-06-2015, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Can you play me a version of 433 without the audience?

The only way to do that is if you were the performer since if anybody else performed it, you would become a part of the audience.

**Frownland** · 07-06-2015, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Anyone part of the performance is not the audience.

which is why

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

The only way to do that is if you were the performer

DwnWthVwls · 07-06-2015, 03:32 PM

Anyone part of the performance is not the audience.

DwnWthVwls · 07-06-2015, 03:34 PM

Which is why 433 isn't music. If you can't perform the piece without an audience than it is essentially nothing.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here as I really don't care, and this is the most logical counter-argument I could think of.

**Frownland** · 07-06-2015, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Which is why 433 isn't music. If you can't perform the piece without an audience than it is essentially nothing.

That seems like a very arbitrary way to define music. We have to rule out Steely Dan as music if these are the parameters.

It is also very possible to perform it without the audience. The audience isn't the only thing making sounds in the world. Stop and listen for thirty seconds and I assure you that you'll hear something.

DwnWthVwls · 07-06-2015, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

That seems like a very arbitrary way to define music. We have to rule out Steely Dan as music if these are the parameters.

It is also very possible to perform it without the audience. The audience isn't the only thing making sounds in the world. Stop and listen for thirty seconds and I assure you that you'll hear something.

That goes against the nature of the intention behind the piece, and since according to you intention is all you need for it to be music, that argument doesn't hold up. I don't think, it's arbitrary silence is only music when it's part of a larger piece, unless you also believe that nothing is something (which I do not).

Idk Steely Dan, sorry.

Edit: Unless I misunderstood (I never really got involved in this discussion), isn't the intention behind 433 for the audience to create it's own music via ambient sounds like pamphlet folding, coughing, readjusting in their seat?

**Frownland** · 07-06-2015, 03:42 PM

^I'm quite aware of what I'm saying. The fact that it is a composition is simply that: a fact, it doesn't make a point in either direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

That goes against the nature of the intention beyond the piece, and since according to you intention is all you need for it to be music, that argument doesn't hold up.

Idk Steely Dan, sorry.

The idea of the piece is that musical sounds exist beyond the performers' instruments. The original example was the audience in an orchestral hall, but it could also be anything else in the material world. The piece doesn't call for an audience, and if it did, I wouldn't put it past Cage to actually write that on the composition.

Steely Dan were a group who made (kind of) complex tunes that were too much for them to perform live. So they didn't.

EDIT: Bat, whenever I talk about the compositional process of 4'33", it refers to the conceptualization of the piece, not just writing it down on paper. That might be where some of the confusion comes from.

The Batlord · 07-06-2015, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

EDIT: Bat, whenever I talk about the compositional process of 4'33", it refers to the conceptualization of the piece, not just writing it down on paper. That might be where some of the confusion comes from.

You mean the basic idea of having a performance where the performers don't perform (or however you want to describe it). Regardless, the unnecessary nature of the physical composition still points me toward the whole thing being an intellectual endeavor about music, rather than an actual musical one.

What separates 4'33 from being performance art about music, and being music?

Chula Vista · 07-06-2015, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Steely Dan were a group who made complex tunes that were too much for them to perform live. So they didn't.

Steely Dan chose to become strictly a studio band for a number of years but they toured both before then and have off and on since 1993 after a decade long retirement.

Burning Down · 07-06-2015, 03:47 PM

If you can't recognize 4'33" as musical composition, then you're missing the entire point of the piece.

All music is performance art to me, OP.

07-06-2015, 03:47 PM	#10 (permalink)
Burning Down The Music Guru. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Beyond the Wall Posts: 4,858	If you can't recognize 4'33" as musical composition, then you're missing the entire point of the piece. All music is performance art to me, OP.