What do people think of Vivaldi?

Burning Down · 06-02-2013, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anathematized_one

Technical ability is not good or bad, but technical ability or skill without genuine expression is pointless masturbation.

That is my position.

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I get that, I've been playing flute for quite a number of years. Technical ability and virtuosity is expected of every flautist, along with being able to express it. Before I started working on Chaminade's "Concertino", I pretty much believed that virtuosity, both on the parts of the composer and the instrumentalist, was for the birds, and only worked at it when forced to do so (i.e. with etudes and caprices for my lessons). But it really isn't and I got a wake up call with that piece, lol.

It's definitely important not only for the composer to be able to put texture and expression at the forefront of a piece, but also for the performer to be able to convey that to the audience.

But you didn't answer my question yet! I'm just wondering, that's all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down

Have you played any of it, like for lessons or performances, if you play an instrument? Playing this music always offers a different perspective.

anathematized_one · 06-02-2013, 03:36 PM

Technical ability is not good or bad, but technical ability or skill without genuine expression is pointless masturbation.

That is my position. The most technically difficult piece, in lacking expression, cannot even hold a candle to the most simplistic composition that actually has genuine emotion and expression.

I wrote a poem about that idea after listening to a bunch of ego-masturbation in an existentialism course:
"The World is Sunshine and Roses"
When everyone is so dry and vapid, a shot glass of water spilled haphazardly on the driest desert appears as deep as the graceful ocean. Some say I should get out more, but that only makes it worse. At least when you’re not surrounded by manure, you can imagine the roses haven’t wilted and withered; if you get out in the fields though, walking through only stirs up that smell of death in the grey vastness of empty stems and the **** from which they failed to gain fertility.

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anathematized_one · 06-02-2013, 08:02 PM

Yes I play several instruments and never played any of "Four Seasons". I don't have to play it to hear that it lacks any genuine expression of feeling.

I play: guitar, bass, violin, viola, cello, double bass, harmonica, harp (to include full 47-string concert pedal harp) and various percussion instruments (timpani, djembe, various single-drum instruments, melodic toms).

Either way... nobody needs to be able to play or even know music history or theory to hold my position on the piece, so whether or not I do play, compose or have studied any of it academically should be entirely irrelevant.

I can appreciate skill, but I can't bear to listen to technical music that lacks expression and you don't need to play or study to hear that there is none beyond kitschy, empty fluff.

Plankton · 06-03-2013, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anathematized_one

Yes I play several instruments and never played any of "Four Seasons". I don't have to play it to hear that it lacks any genuine expression of feeling.

I play: guitar, bass, violin, viola, cello, double bass, harmonica, harp (to include full 47-string concert pedal harp) and various percussion instruments (timpani, djembe, various single-drum instruments, melodic toms).

Either way... nobody needs to be able to play or even know music history or theory to hold my position on the piece, so whether or not I do play, compose or have studied any of it academically should be entirely irrelevant.

I can appreciate skill, but I can't bear to listen to technical music that lacks expression and you don't need to play or study to hear that there is none beyond kitschy, empty fluff.

Can you give an example of something that you feel has genuine expression of feeling? Like BD, I'm trying to get an understanding of where you're coming from as well.

anathematized_one · 06-03-2013, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Can you give an example of something that you feel has genuine expression of feeling? Like BD, I'm trying to get an understanding of where you're coming from as well.

Sure, an example first for Vivaldi:

And now another baroque composer, Händel:

And Mozart since I compared my views on Vivaldi to him:

Finally, a compare and contrast in a different but related genre.

First, Jason Becker. When I listen to this song, I get imagery in my head of an Egyptian pharaoh who is just nnot having a good day and all these different talents like court jesters or jugglers try to entertain him and they fail and finally this Queen Nefertiti-esque woman walks in and suddenly he is happy:

And now a Yngwie Malmsteen wank-fest. When I listen to this, I get absolutely no imagery, even when taking into consideration the song title, in fact when I think of the song title and any sense that one could mean by Leviathan, this musoc doesn't at all come close to matching it:

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Plankton · 06-03-2013, 12:27 PM

The Jason Becker link is broken, but know his stuff. The Leviathon video is blank, but I know the song (luckily you'd mentioned it). One of my favorites, where he rides on the edge of a hexatonic blues scale. You obviously have very distinct tastes.

Also, I'm not sure if you were meaning to post music that HAS feeling or not. I'm a bit confused. To you, which ones of the videos you posted have feel and which ones don't?

anathematized_one · 06-03-2013, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

The Jason Becker link is broken, but know his stuff. The Leviathon video is blank, but I know the song (luckily you'd mentioned it). One of my favorites, where he rides on the edge of a hexatonic blues scale. You obviously have very distinct tastes.

Also, I'm not sure if you were meaning to post music that HAS feeling or not. I'm a bit confused. To you, which ones of the videos you posted have feel and which ones don't?

All the ones I posted have feeling/genuine expression except Leviathan. Leviathan technically complex and magnificently played, expresses nothing.

The Jason Becker was supposed to be "Eleven Blue Egyptians".

Now don't get me wrong, I do think Vivaldi and Mozart are amazing, but that most of their most popular pieces are their worst ones.

Like if you ask if Michaelangelo was a master artist, most would say yes assuming he is and cannot say why. Even then most only know about the statue of David or the Cistine chapel abd that just basically is not doing justice to his true magnificence. There is so much more to the statue or the chapel than what mosy realise and there are many other works which are equally as phenomenal.

Or people praising Warhol as a great artist, despite the fact that Warhol himself even said his soup cans were not art and basically all of his pop art was one giant trolling od the art community (Warhol - "You can put anything on canvas these days and people will think it is art"). The only reason he did it was to make money to fund what he really wanted to do in art, the stuff nobody ever talks about or knows exists.

This is basically how I feel about "Four Seasons"

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Plankton · 06-03-2013, 04:07 PM

Ok, I think I understand you now. And I get it.

From a personal standpoint, the Becker song (as most of them are, but there are exceptions to Jason) is quite a bit of chromatic/ionian/myxolidian wankering to me, as opposed to the Yngwie tune. They both show their teeth on the chops as best as they only know how, but when Leviathon hits at 2:27 and on until the end of the solo, its quite exraordinary to find that in his style and approach, which in turn gives it a bit more feel IMO.

Don't want to turn this into a Becker vs Yingwee thread so I'll leave it at that. I do get what you are saying though... Don't believe the hype!

anathematized_one · 06-03-2013, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Ok, I think I understand you now. And I get it.

From a personal standpoint, the Becker song (as most of them are, but there are exceptions to Jason) is quite a bit of chromatic/ionian/myxolidian wankering to me, as opposed to the Yngwie tune. They both show their teeth on the chops as best as they only know how, but when Leviathon hits at 2:27 and on until the end of the solo, its quite exraordinary to find that in his style and approach, which in turn gives it a bit more feel IMO.

Don't want to turn this into a Becker vs Yingwee thread so I'll leave it at that. I do get what you are saying though... Don't believe the hype!

Again, that is all technicalities. Listening, what imagery is there, what does it say? What does it make me feel? That is why I hate Four Seasons as opposed to other works.

It doesn't matter what key or scale or way things are used - does it portray something real or is it stereotypical, emotionless dead nothingness?

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Burning Down · 06-03-2013, 07:46 PM

I wouldn't say it's emotionless - emotion is always there in some way or another - but perhaps the emotions are just bland/typical of such a piece? Maybe the true emotions and feelings are lost in the midst of all the "sound diarrhea".

However, I can always appreciate the skill that is displayed by musicians who play this music.

06-02-2013, 03:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
anathematized_one Music Addict Join Date: May 2013 Location: Someplace Awful Posts: 123	Technical ability is not good or bad, but technical ability or skill without genuine expression is pointless masturbation. That is my position. The most technically difficult piece, in lacking expression, cannot even hold a candle to the most simplistic composition that actually has genuine emotion and expression. I wrote a poem about that idea after listening to a bunch of ego-masturbation in an existentialism course: "The World is Sunshine and Roses" When everyone is so dry and vapid, a shot glass of water spilled haphazardly on the driest desert appears as deep as the graceful ocean. Some say I should get out more, but that only makes it worse. At least when you’re not surrounded by manure, you can imagine the roses haven’t wilted and withered; if you get out in the fields though, walking through only stirs up that smell of death in the grey vastness of empty stems and the **** from which they failed to gain fertility. Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2 __________________ Sardonicus YouTube Channel Last edited by anathematized_one; 06-02-2013 at 03:45 PM.

06-02-2013, 08:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
anathematized_one Music Addict Join Date: May 2013 Location: Someplace Awful Posts: 123	Yes I play several instruments and never played any of "Four Seasons". I don't have to play it to hear that it lacks any genuine expression of feeling. I play: guitar, bass, violin, viola, cello, double bass, harmonica, harp (to include full 47-string concert pedal harp) and various percussion instruments (timpani, djembe, various single-drum instruments, melodic toms). Either way... nobody needs to be able to play or even know music history or theory to hold my position on the piece, so whether or not I do play, compose or have studied any of it academically should be entirely irrelevant. I can appreciate skill, but I can't bear to listen to technical music that lacks expression and you don't need to play or study to hear that there is none beyond kitschy, empty fluff. __________________ Sardonicus YouTube Channel

06-03-2013, 12:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
Plankton Just Keep Swimming... Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: See signature... Posts: 7,765	The Jason Becker link is broken, but know his stuff. The Leviathon video is blank, but I know the song (luckily you'd mentioned it). One of my favorites, where he rides on the edge of a hexatonic blues scale. You obviously have very distinct tastes. Also, I'm not sure if you were meaning to post music that HAS feeling or not. I'm a bit confused. To you, which ones of the videos you posted have feel and which ones don't? __________________ See location...

06-03-2013, 04:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
Plankton Just Keep Swimming... Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: See signature... Posts: 7,765	Ok, I think I understand you now. And I get it. From a personal standpoint, the Becker song (as most of them are, but there are exceptions to Jason) is quite a bit of chromatic/ionian/myxolidian wankering to me, as opposed to the Yngwie tune. They both show their teeth on the chops as best as they only know how, but when Leviathon hits at 2:27 and on until the end of the solo, its quite exraordinary to find that in his style and approach, which in turn gives it a bit more feel IMO. Don't want to turn this into a Becker vs Yingwee thread so I'll leave it at that. I do get what you are saying though... Don't believe the hype! __________________ See location...

06-03-2013, 07:46 PM	#10 (permalink)
Burning Down The Music Guru. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Beyond the Wall Posts: 4,858	I wouldn't say it's emotionless - emotion is always there in some way or another - but perhaps the emotions are just bland/typical of such a piece? Maybe the true emotions and feelings are lost in the midst of all the "sound diarrhea". However, I can always appreciate the skill that is displayed by musicians who play this music.