jadis

SCOTLAND: A rape crisis center reportedly turned away a survivor who inquired about female-only therapy following the appointment of a trans-identified male as CEO

Tristan_Geoff

damn why hasn't anyone posted in this thread in a while? seems like a topic worth talking about for sure and in no way causes real harm to marginalized populations of people

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Talking about a topic does not cause harm. Slippery slope, friendo.

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elphenor

[QUOTE=jadis;2236333]Anyway "the big idea" of mid 20th century feminism was to reject stereotypes of "femininity." Whereas the trans movement of today appears to take them arguably more seriously than they've ever been taken before.
/QUOTE]

This is really a 19th Century idea with Molly Wollstonecraft

her daughter ofc wrote "Frankenstein" Which in the 2nd half of the 20th Century was reclaimed by critics as the incredibly important feminist work it is

Shelley says with "Frankenstein" that there is no substitute for the feminine characteristics found in mothers

it's a critique of her mother's view of femininity as something to be escaped from

as a feminist work it does not ask women to be more like men, but asks men to be more like women, it elevates femininity

all of this to say that there has never been a consensus

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Tristan_Geoff

talking about a topic doesn't cause harm inherently, but the light that this thread and the person who made it are casting on the subject is one of damnation and one that creates distrust, which can and will lead to infection of ideas. good thing this ain't no echo chamber or else the whole forum would be spouting the same ideas

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But he’s one dude shouting into a void - who exactly is being infected by ideas?

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jadis

[QUOTE=elphenor;2236435]Simone de Beauvoir is not Molly Wollstonecraft lmao

Wollstonecraft spoke the Enlightment language of universal rights. The philosophical background that informed Beauvoir's signature line (from Durkheim to her husband) was not available in the late 18th century. No one in the 19th century could've written that line.

At this point I have no idea what you think I'm saying. I made the uncontroversial point that the word "gender" had a completely different import in the radical feminism of the 1970s than it does today. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that it has accrued the aditional meaning of "innermost identity"* that has nothing to do with the social constructivist earlier usage. The 1970s meaning of the word has not dissapeared, it is still used in that way by some, including by TRAs who can use this meaning interchangeably with "inner identity", oblivious to any contradiction.

* I'm not interested in the caption, just in what the person in the video is saying.

Kathleen Stock lists four different meanings of "gender" we use interchangeably. Her book is really really good and clear on that and other issues.

Anyway why did you say "hundreds" of years? Why that order of magnitude?

elphenor

thanks for clarifying that those are, in fact, 2 different people

I responded to the quoted section of your post where you assert that 20th Century feminism was about the rejection of feminine stereotypes

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elphenor

in the 19th Century the defining cause of feminism was suffrage

it was necessary to attack the docile role of women and to ask them to assert themselves like men

Here you have the (important) idea that someone is made a woman by their oppression, and should seek to escape from that

there were detractors from this idea almost as early as it was formed because it devalues femininity

but especially by the 70s it was disputed

this is relevant to the broader conversation here because it is now the belief of (reasonable) people that it's perfectly valid to be a feminine woman however you feel like expressing that

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jadis

I replied by saying that feminism of the era of Voltaire, Rousseau and the French Revolution is not that of post-WW2 Beauvoir.

"Stereotype" is not an idea that had meaning for "Molly Wollstonecraft". The word itself was coined much later, it's a very 20th century idea.