The Wow I Can't Believe That News Story Thread

[Lisnaholic]

Originally Posted by Anteater

Lulz. He's doing exactly what he preached in The Art Of The Deal: push the other party to the brink and see what they do.

^ That's a strange way to look at things, and ignores the fact that he was also pushing himself, the luckless Fed workers, the American public and the Republicans to the brink as well. He folded when confronted by the resounding rejection of his cause from all sides, even down to that loathsome Trump acolyte, Mitch McConnell.

Ideally that's enough to get a deal, but when it isn't you just switch tactics.

^ Or to paraphrase, if you waste a month promoting something that fails spectacularly, try something else. Personally I wouldn't agrandise that approach as being some tactic in the art of the deal.

On another note, the shutdown actually ended up costing more money overall than what Trump asked for. So that's on Pelosi and the rest of the donkeys.

^ Actually, Trump has already declared himself proud to own the shutdown. Everybody, from Pence on down had made a bi-partisan agreement that would've avoided the shutdown altogether. All he had to do was sign, so the fact that he didn't is exclusively on him and his flawed decision to let Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh dictate his policy and force his u-turn on that agreement.

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

^ That's a strange way to look at things, and ignores the fact that he was also pushing himself, the luckless Fed workers, the American public and the Republicans to the brink as well. He folded when confronted by the resounding rejection of his cause from all sides, even down to that loathsome Trump acolyte, Mitch McConnell.


^ Or to paraphrase, if you waste a month promoting something that fails spectacularly, try something else. Personally I wouldn't agrandise that approach as being some tactic in the art of the deal.



^ Actually, Trump has already declared himself proud to own the shutdown. Everybody, from Pence on down had made a bi-partisan agreement that would've avoided the shutdown altogether. All he had to do was sign, so the fact that he didn't is exclusively on him and his flawed decision to let Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh dictate his policy and force his u-turn on that agreement.

1. It isn't strange at all. Government shutdowns are a two way street, and it stopped being Trump's responsibility at a very clear point near the end. Trump owned it to the point where the Democrats rejected his proposal (which would have been a good concession on DACA as well). At that point, the amount Trump was asking for had already been exceeded by the cost of the shutdown itself. Seeing that, Trump realized that the Democrats were willing to keep the government shut down even when the cost of doing so was painful to everyone else.

2. Politics aren't that different from certain aspects of my own work. Look at marketing and advertising: the only way businesses achieve their goals are by shifting tactics and experimenting. You try something for a month and say "I'm willing to spend X to see if this approach will get me my target ROI". If it doesn't work, you shift gears. That's why people pay companies like mine thousands and thousands of dollars, because everything is a work in progress when you are attempting to achieve a specific goal and it's a full time job to develop methodologies that work.

3. When you look at the total amount of money available and what Trump was asking for, it's a drop in the bucket. That's why it makes no sense that the Democrats weren't willing to take any deal from him, because that would have been leverage they could have used later on. Now they don't get any concessions on DACA and he'll likely take radical steps to get what he wants instead. And the courts will uphold it in the end to boot.

My guess is that Trump would rather have the Wall than a 2nd term, so it will be interesting to see what he does to actually attempt to fulfill that particular campaign promise now that he knows that his opposition won't take any sort of compromise.

[The Batlord]

Funny how the libertarian supports authoritarian executive practices.

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

Funny how the libertarian supports authoritarian executive practices.

Your mom is authoritarian.

Originally Posted by elphenor

I didn't say anything about previous administrations

but again, I'm not seeing where they have bent the knee, China has made no concessions yet

a deal has to be made about the trade war Trump launched against them, and China's retaliatory tariffs

both sides are losing

Do you know how much money is lost every year because of China's intellectual property theft? Besides opening up their market more to U.S. goods, that's going to be the pressure point.

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by elphenor

but if this were the case he could have done it prior to Democrats winning the House

Republicans are prepared to pass it now, they would have been prepared to pass it then

He tried to get funding for the wall over a year ago, to the tune of roughly 2 billion. There was enough Democrat opposition even at that point to derail it before it even made it to the Senate. They only thing the GOP and Dems agreed on at that point was 1.5 billion allocated for tech and maintenance at the border. No new fending or the like ofc.

Originally Posted by elphenor

that's the evidence of China bending the knee?

because it sounds like no concessions have been made

Yep. Because there's a big difference between China doing whatever the **** they want and China coming to the negotiating table because Trump's actions have both directly and indirectly put them in a position where they actually want to negotiate on something. That in itself is a big concession.

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by elphenor

they haven't even come to the negotiating table

nothing has been negotiated

interpreting the possibility that China will blink first as them already bending the knee is a bit silly mate

They're already proposing a few tasty morsels. We'll just have to see what a final arrangement might look like later in the year.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/18/chin...us-report.html

[Lisnaholic]

Well, I'm sorry Anteater, but I see things from a very different perspective. Specifically:

Originally Posted by Anteater

1. Government shutdowns are a two way street.

What does that even mean? If you're suggesting there is shared responsibility for a shutdown, why are you praising Trump for pushing the Dems to the limit?

... and it stopped being Trump's responsibility at a very clear point near the end. Trump owned it to the point where the Democrats rejected his proposal (which would have been a good concession on DACA as well).

^ All along Trump could've ended the shutdown by honouring his pre-Ann-Coulter word on the bi-partisan agreement, so no, it didn't stop being his responsibility. His proposal was a disingenious mish-mash of old ideas that had already been rejected and certainly didn't contain "a good concession on DACA". Surely it has been Trump who has put the fate of DACA recipients at risk? Basically, Trump took away their security, then in the proposal you mention, he offered to give it back to them temporarily if he was given $5.7 bn. That's pretty much the same technique that is used in protection racketering.

... Trump realized that the Democrats were willing to keep the government shut down even when the cost of doing so was painful to everyone else.

^ Everyone knew from Day One that a shutdown would be painful. In fact Trump was one of a few Montgomery-Burns-type voices insisting right to the last that Fed workers could get loans and "work along", whatever that much repeated, but never explained expression means. Please don't suggest that he had a change of heart the day the Dems rejected his proposal - that doesn't really tally with the timeline of events.

2. Politics aren't that different from certain aspects of my own work. Look at marketing and advertising: the only way businesses achieve their goals are by shifting tactics and experimenting. You try something for a month and say "I'm willing to spend X to see if this approach will get me my target ROI".

^ Or to adapt your words to match Trump's approach, "I'm willing to let 800, 000 Fed workers suffer to see if it will get me what I want."

If it doesn't work, you shift gears. That's why people pay companies like mine thousands and thousands of dollars, because everything is a work in progress when you are attempting to achieve a specific goal and it's a full time job to develop methodologies that work.

^ I think this piece of corporate jargon also needs to be adapted if it is to match the conduct of Trump and McConnell during the shut down. I didn't notice either of them working full-time to develop methodologies that work. McConnell was so missing in action that a Where'sMitch? hashtag was created to try to flush him out into the open.

Now they don't get any concessions on DACA and he'll likely take radical steps to get what he wants instead. And the courts will uphold it in the end to boot.

^ This is for the future, so I can't contradict you but I don't share your certainty about how it's going to play out.

[Anteater]

1. A shutdown always seems to happens when two sides disagree on a key issue. I'm praising Trump on this particular shutdown because it became obvious that the Democrats wanted to fly off to Puerto Rico rather than come up with a deal. They were the ones who "caved" by putting Trump into a position where he could shut down the government in the first place. It's like "guys, you were willing to send 20 billion to Mexico and South America without batting an eye. If he wants 5 billion let him have it and then use the whole debacle against him in 2020". But noooooo, "Hey, lets shut down the government and let Trump set the stage to do crazier things later. I'm sure that won't blow back on us at all later on..."

Basically, I believe their reaction to Trump's stubbornness came off as ridiculously dumb. They sound nicer on T.V. because they're all rehearsed, but they're everything that's wrong with our political system. They took their salaries and flew off to chill with celebrities instead of trying to outsmart the POTUS or make a deal sooner.

2. Trump sought funding for the Wall back in 2017 as well and Democrats + RINOs couldn't come up with a good deal then either: didn't even make it to the Senate. And all he asked for back then was 2 billion.

3. Considering the fact that Trump was already in the process of passing a bill to provide backpay to workers effected by the shutdown, it is safe to say that the timeline supports my version of events as opposed to yours. He never intended it to go on beyond a month's time. He thought they'd either cave or push him to Operation: National Emergency. Otherwise, the timing of him signing a bill for backpay to federal workers is too coincidental.

4. Fed workers always get the short of the stick during a shutdown. Does everyone despise Bill Clinton retrospectively when he shut down the government for relatively petty disagreements in the mid 90's? Of course not. The same will be true of this. It's just another petty bump in the road, just instead of Bill Clinton screaming about education moneys its Trump wanting to fulfill another campaign promise.

5. "I didn't notice either of them working full-time to develop methodologies that work" doesn't mean anything. My point still stands. Plus, you need to take media coverage of any given event or narrative with a grain of salt. None of those reports have any clue what McConnell or anyone else was working on. CNN isn't living in his sock drawer.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by Anteater

1. A shutdown always seems to happens when two sides disagree on a key issue. I'm praising Trump on this particular shutdown because it became obvious that the Democrats wanted to fly off to Puerto Rico rather than come up with a deal. They were the ones who "caved" by putting Trump into a position where he could shut down the government in the first place. It's like "guys, you were willing to send 20 billion to Mexico and South America without batting an eye. If he wants 5 billion let him have it and then use the whole debacle against him in 2020". But noooooo, "Hey, lets shut down the government and let Trump set the stage to do crazier things later. I'm sure that won't blow back on us at all later on..."

Basically, I believe their reaction to Trump's stubbornness came off as ridiculously dumb. They sound nicer on T.V. because they're all rehearsed, but they're everything that's wrong with our political system. They took their salaries and flew off to chill with celebrities instead of trying to outsmart the POTUS or make a deal sooner.

2. Trump sought funding for the Wall back in 2017 as well and Democrats + RINOs couldn't come up with a good deal then either: didn't even make it to the Senate. And all he asked for back then was 2 billion.

3. Considering the fact that Trump was already in the process of passing a bill to provide backpay to workers effected by the shutdown, it is safe to say that the timeline supports my version of events as opposed to yours. He never intended it to go on beyond a month's time. He thought they'd either cave or push him to Operation: National Emergency. Otherwise, the timing of him signing a bill for backpay to federal workers is too coincidental.

4. Fed workers always get the short of the stick during a shutdown. Does everyone despise Bill Clinton retrospectively when he shut down the government for relatively petty disagreements in the mid 90's? Of course not. The same will be true of this. It's just another petty bump in the road, just instead of Bill Clinton screaming about education moneys its Trump wanting to fulfill another campaign promise.

5. "I didn't notice either of them working full-time to develop methodologies that work" doesn't mean anything. My point still stands. Plus, you need to take media coverage of any given event or narrative with a grain of salt. None of those reports have any clue what McConnell or anyone else was working on. CNN isn't living in his sock drawer.

**** compromising with and appeasing a race baiting sociopath. No wall, no question.

[MicShazam]

Ah. Just 2 billion for his crazy symbolic fascist wall building project. Trump is a reasonable man after all. It's not like 2 billion is a heck of a lot of money and could be put to real use somewhere else.