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Old 11-03-2019, 12:54 PM   #19321 (permalink)
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Now that's ****ing nihilism. Acting morally is not in our best interest so we do not act morally? Why not just stop producing if we're going to settle for empty, robotic pragmatism?
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 11-03-2019, 01:13 PM   #19322 (permalink)
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The world is not a friendly place. Everyone is self interested.
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Old 11-03-2019, 01:34 PM   #19323 (permalink)
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Bro, if humankind were capable of living like that we wouldn't have invented religion. The human race is ****ing crazy with churches on every block cause we can't reconcile morality with pragmatism.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 11-03-2019, 01:41 PM   #19324 (permalink)
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Capable of living like what? I don't understand you.
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Old 11-03-2019, 01:47 PM   #19325 (permalink)
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Capable of living off pure self-interest. You also have to have this convoluted, nonsensical concept called "morality" to convince people that life has meaning and value and purpose aside from their biological imperative.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 11-03-2019, 02:50 PM   #19326 (permalink)
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Ooops.
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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”
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Old 11-03-2019, 03:17 PM   #19327 (permalink)
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Capable of living off pure self-interest. You also have to have this convoluted, nonsensical concept called "morality" to convince people that life has meaning and value and purpose aside from their biological imperative.
Alright

1) You're instantly taking it to a philosophical level, but when I said "everyone is self interested" it was in the context of the discussion we were having, which is geopolitics. Every nation state has an agenda that is largely based around pursuing strategic interests for that nation state.

2) I believe that morality is a function of biology just like every other influence on human behavior. Also, the reason we have religion goes beyond morality.
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Old 11-03-2019, 03:37 PM   #19328 (permalink)
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I don't think I made such a logical leap that you can't follow it without some pussyass evasion. Yes morality evolved to keep people from murdering, stealing, and being rude to each other for the sake of survivability. But the human mind is too complex for morality to stay so simplistic without seeing right through the illusion which is why morality became as convoluted as people are and evolved into things like religion and arcane honor codes and modernism and post-modernism.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 11-03-2019, 03:59 PM   #19329 (permalink)
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This place hurts my ****ing head sometimes. WTF point are you folks trying to arrive at?

Humans were ****ed as soon as they learned the word "why".
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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”
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Old 11-03-2019, 04:06 PM   #19330 (permalink)
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It's not an evasion, it's keeping the statement in context.

I was referring to the actions of nation States as we were having a discussion on American foreign policy. I wasn't saying that humans are incapable of altruism on an individual level. That's an important distinction to me.

Since we evolved in tribes, we naturally have instincts for maintaining order within a society. We are far less biologically developed at maintaining order between different competing societies. That is why things that would be considered unforgivable within the tribe are tolerated when at war with a rival tribe.

And again, morality is an aspect of religion and philosophy. One among many. Religion and philosophy are not derived from morality though. It is merely one source of insight among many.
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