The Wow I Can't Believe That News Story Thread

[jadis]

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I believe Batty is talking about trans people, not queers. Which, in itself, is not a very flattering term to use for gay people. Isn't that a slur? Unless you're one of them yourself of course. Like using the N word when you're not black?

It's long been reclaimed and is now one of the preferred umbrella terms of choice for LGBTQ+ people. We even have Queer Theory in universities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_theory

I like that it used to mean "oblique" (before acquiring the sexual undertones sometime in the 20th century). It's used in the first story in Joyce's Dubliners, Sisters, and there the denotation is still "strange, not quite right" but the sexual connotation is very much there (it's about an elderly priest and a young boy, do the math...).

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Oh look, the guy who can't get Foucault's Boomerang right.

Foucault's Boomerang is not a thing, it's the mother of all "taken out of context". Foucault gives a nod to a theory that was around long ago in a lecture course where he develops ideas that couldn't be further from that.

It comes from some blog, where the guy randomly pulls this short paragraph to co-sign Foucault onto a set of propositions Foucault's would've rolled his eyes at. I want to say "this would've never passed peer review" but I've seen stuff on this level get published by Anglo sociologists and esp in the so-called "security studies". You latch onto the one paragraph you are comfortable with and ignore the rest.

Originally Posted by jadis

*movie trailer voiceover* a BRAIN WAR between two MB heavyweights

DEBATING

which group is gonna get genocided first, THE QUEERS or THE JEWS

TUNE IN etc

lol

to be clear, my original point was that while trans and lgbt people get targeted in certain ways I don't think they're on the verge of genocide, and in addition to that I thought there are other groups we can make similar arguments about using pretty much the same metrics. I don't think the Jews are on the verge of a genocide either though.

[jadis]

Originally Posted by jwb

lol

to be clear, my original point was that while trans and lgbt people get targeted in certain ways I don't think they're on the verge of genocide, and in addition to that I thought there are other groups we can make similar arguments about using pretty much the same metrics. I don't think the Jews are on the verge of a genocide either though.

Right. The real effect of comparing everything to Nazis and Auschwitz, which is a real hobby for some, is that it obscures the very real dangers posed by the rise in extremism today.

I heard an interview with a Jewish historian of anti-semitism on French radio and he was 1) very concerned about the rise in violence targeting Jews in France today 2) annoyed that some compare it to the 1930s. The situations have nothing in common, he said, and lead people to misunderstand and minimize the uniquely desperate situation of European Jews in the 1930s, who were utterly abandoned and couldn't expect help from any quarter. We live in a different world today that poses its own multiple dangers and those should be assessed in their specificity.

I get it that it's more exciting to think of yourself as an anti-fascist warrior rather than another guy from the suburbs. That's perfectly human. But it's funny to me that the Soviet victory over the Nazis (which fueled the myth of communist anti-fascism in the West and was a reliable tool to recruit useful idiots to the cause) was always a Russian nationalist myth within Russia, with only the thinnest veneer of universalist values even during the Soviet era. Now that it's mobilized by Putin in Ukraine, some of the self-professed anti-fascists are temporarily embarrassed and scrub all the heroic Soviet imagery from their twitter profiles. Wonder if that's the end of that or is it due for another rewarming.

Originally Posted by jadis

Right. The real effect of comparing everything to Nazis and Auschwitz, which is a real hobby for some, is that it obscures the very real dangers posed by the rise in extremism today.

I heard an interview with a Jewish historian of anti-semitism on French radio and he was 1) very concerned about the rise in violence targeting Jews in France today 2) annoyed that some compare it to the 1930s. The situations have nothing in common, he said, and lead people to misunderstand and minimize the uniquely desperate situation of European Jews in the 1930s, who were utterly abandoned and couldn't expect help from any quarter. We live in a different world today that poses its own multiple dangers and those should be assessed in their specificity.

I get it that it's more exciting to think of yourself as an anti-fascist warrior rather than another guy from the suburbs. That's perfectly human. But it's funny to me that the Soviet victory over the Nazis (which fueled the myth of communist anti-fascism in the West and was a reliable tool to recruit useful idiots to the cause) was always a Russian nationalist myth within Russia, with only the thinnest veneer of universalist values even during the Soviet era. Now that it's mobilized by Putin in Ukraine, some of the self-professed anti-fascists are temporarily embarrassed and scrub all the heroic Soviet imagery from their twitter profiles. Wonder if that's the end of that or is it due for another rewarming.

well it's funny you mention the antifascist angle cause a lot of people seem to harken back to this sort of WW2 model for antifascism when trying to find direction for or justifications for elements of the modern antifa ****.

Like one argument I remember hearing a lot a few years back was that it was good strategy to punch Nazis (Richard Spencer) cause we've tried negotiating with them and the only thing they understand is violence. I've specifically heard Vaush make this kind of argument.

But my recollection of history is that all the failed communist coups and all the brawls where communists fought brown shirts in the streets did **** all to prevent the rise of Nazi power. But the USSR did actually take on the lions share of the burden of actually defeating Nazi power. Which is like... Go Russian military industrial complex I guess?

It's funny though, I feel like both modern Russia and modern USA share the same foundational myth , which is beating the Nazis. I feel like we've outgrown 1776 at this point. The modern version of America didn't start until The Fonz was on TV

[The Batlord]

Oh look, the guy who can't get Foucault's Boomerang right.

[The Batlord]

Thank you. I hadn't considered that two situations could be different. Aren't you supposed to be smart?

[jadis]

I'm not necessarily talking about you in particular but of a broader trend which I like to observe on Twitter and of which you seem to be broadly representative. I have no interest in following the evolution of your rhetoric and registering whether you did or did not, at some point, learn to insert "but it's more complicated than that" or something to that effect. Overall, it still seems that your worldview is informed by categories derived from Star Wars and video games and things of that nature, but if you're working on complicating that picture, good for you. Chapeau.

[The Batlord]

And you seem to like shadowboxing with the leftist in your head and posting about a French Jew who probably hates sharing the Holocaust with gypsies.

[jadis]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

And you seem to like shadowboxing with the leftist in your head and posting about a French Jew who probably hates sharing the Holocaust with gypsies.

I'm talking about a very well-known phenomenon, which I've witnessed for years in a city with four universities and a long and storied history of left-wing student activism (some of which, moreover, I'm really proud of). For the way the rhetorical mechanism of "anti-Fascism" worked throughout the 20th century, see Furet's great book The Passing of an Illusion.

The remark about the French Jew is pretty shameful tbh. As usual, you make presumptions without basis, which is understandable. But I'd be more careful in this particular context.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jadis

I'm talking about a very well-known phenomenon, which I've witnessed for years in a city with four universities and a long and storied history of left-wing student activism (some of which, moreover, I'm really proud of). For the way the rhetorical mechanism of "anti-Fascism" worked throughout the 20th century, see Furet's great book The Passing of an Illusion.

The remark about the French Jew is pretty shameful tbh. As usual, you make presumptions without basis, which is understandable. But I'd be more careful in this particular context.

Oh come on, pussy, it was a joke. And a joke with like a 50% chance of being true, don't lie.