This I Believe There is / is not a God

Neapolitan · 08-20-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

I believe the universe and everything in it, even our thoughts, is the product of a long chain of fairly predictable events, cause and consequence. I hate it when people say "we're here by accident" - no we're not, the emergence of life on our planet was most likely a highly probable event and it's subsequent evolution is simply a matter of cause and consequence.

You sound like you are contradicting yourself. If you hate the people who say we're here by accident then why bring up Probablity by sayin it's highly probable. Probability needs aberrations or accidents, if it didn't have them it would be a certainty.

Why even bring up Evolution, that needs accidents, too. For Evolution to work, it needs an anomaly to occur in a species that would help it to adapt better to the new environment giving it an edge over those that don't have it. How does these anomalies occur, but by accident. I think you secretly love those people who believe were here by accident, because you are really proving their case for them.

midnight rain · 08-20-2009, 09:14 PM

I believe in God. I also believe that proving his existence (or non-existence) through science and theory isn't possible, as so many try to do. And while some may consider that foolish and a cop out for believers, I think that's why religion is based on belief because, with proof, you don't need the willpower to believe, it's just the knowing.

That probably made absolutely no sense, but I put it in the best terms I could think of. Feel free to let me know how wrong I am.

Neapolitan · 08-20-2009, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zzz

I believe in God. I also believe that proving his existence (or non-existence) through science and theory isn't possible, as so many try to do. And while some may consider that foolish and a cop out for believers, I think that's why religion is based on belief because, with proof, you don't need the willpower to believe, it's just the knowing.

That probably made absolutely no sense, but I put it in the best terms I could think of. Feel free to let me know how wrong I am.

I do agree with you, and it made sense to me.

I don't believe science and fatih are incompatible. You are right that science isn't possible to prove God, science is only only concerned with what is tangible, the created - things created by God. Still science tells us something about God.

If you believe in God and God created the universe then whatever science reveals of the universe, and how it works, in turn reveals something of the wisdom of God.

Guybrush · 08-20-2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

You sound like you are contradicting yourself. If you hate the people who say we're here by accident then why bring up Probablity by sayin it's highly probable. Probability needs aberrations or accidents, if it didn't have them it would be a certainty.

Why even bring up Evolution, that needs accidents, too. For Evolution to work, it needs an anomaly to occur in a species that would help it to adapt better to the new environment giving it an edge over those that don't have it. How does these anomalies occur, but by accident. I think you secretly love those people who believe were here by accident, because you are really proving their case for them.

Well, to me, accident implies two things. The first and biggest beef is that to me it means that something goes wrong, there's an unfortunate event that usually includes victims. The second is improbable, we and other organisms try to avoid accidents by avoidance or decreasing the likelyhood of them happening. To say we're here by accident is an extremely common way to put it, but I don't like it. If you do, alright.

You say evolution requires accidents, I don't like to use the term accident there either. While a single mutation may seem accidental, the course of evolution comes nowhere close. I'm not sure how much you know, but there's something called "natural selection" which basically means that what I would regard as the "accidents" over time are removed from the gene pools. If you gain a mutation which is of benefit to you and your fitness, I don't think that qualifies as an "accident" at all. When accident simply implies randomness, I still don't fully agree. Organs like eyes and lungs have evolved independently several times independent of eachother and so are obviously not accidental. On Australia, you have marsupials like the sugar glider but I'm sure that if most people from here saw one, they would think it was a squirrel. Convergent evolution means the aquisition of the same biological traits in different lineages and it happens because evolution is not random. Mutations may be to a large degree, but natural selection isn't. It steers lineages down evolutionary lines that benefit them with greater fitness.

Also as you seem to understand in regards to what you wrote about the universe, if there's a slight chance for a specific mutation to happen, if you give that mutation a billion chances every day for millions and millions of years, it's not necessarily any longer a question of "if" it's gonna happen, it becomes a question of "when". That's what I meant when I wrote the emergence of life was likely a highly probable event. I imagine it had billions of chances to happen and all the time in the world to get it right, so it was not a question of "if", but a question of "when" - which is not what I think of as accidental.

upbeat4life · 09-15-2009, 07:20 PM

I believe in God because I can't not believe in God. I grew up with this belief surrounding me and now that I am grown and able to question my beliefs and my environment, I have found that I cannot function in a world without something bigger than myself to govern it. Call it a failing, but I consider it a strength because I believe religion has served a useful and sometimes necessary function in society. It gives hope during tragedies and catastrophes; provides an answer for unknown mysteries such and death and sacrificial love; it creates unity within cultures and a set of unified moral codes to live by; it allows one to live without having to constantly reassess the basic tenets of the world around you; it creates hope where there is none; answers unanswerable questions; provides a means to ponder the mysteries of life; and helps me to feel that I'm not alone in the world. That some being understands my thoughts and struggles perfectly and cares enough about me to attend to them. That's why I believe there is a God; and to anybody that disagrees I respect and admire your position, because I know I don't have the strength to live without my belief.

BoRox · 09-16-2009, 02:52 PM

Here's a simple mind experiment. Where did all the stuff come from. Not the Big Bang - what created the stuff inside the Big Bang before it exploded? The first law of thermodynamics says matter isn't created nor destroyed. Someone eternal had to cause it - named God.

**Janszoon** · 09-16-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoRox

Here's a simple mind experiment. Where did all the stuff come from. Not the Big Bang - what created the stuff inside the Big Bang before it exploded? The first law of thermodynamics says matter isn't created nor destroyed. Someone eternal had to cause it - named God.

What created God? Nothing? Well then I guess something can come from nothing so there's no need to postulate a creator for the universe.

BoRox · 09-16-2009, 03:04 PM

Janszoon - you're right! Something has to be eternal. Either we believe the atoms in our universe always existed or that an eternal power existed. I think believing that atoms were always here without a creator is pretty ridiculous.

**Janszoon** · 09-16-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoRox

Janszoon - you're right! Something has to be eternal. Either we believe the atoms in our universe always existed or that an eternal power existed. I think believing that atoms were always here without a creator is pretty ridiculous.

Why? Believing that something infinitely more complex than the universe could exist without a creator would be infinitely more ridiculous.

upbeat4life · 09-16-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Why? Believing that something infinitely more complex than the universe could exist without a creator would be infinitely more ridiculous.

The universe, as far as we know, is bound by space and time. It had a beginning, it will have an end, and it is expanding, which means that it is finite. A god, by definition, exists outside of space/time and possibly created it, so it would not need a creator. Which "proves" nothing beyond that a god is a conceptually possible cause for the start of the universe.

09-15-2009, 07:20 PM	#195 (permalink)
upbeat4life Groupie Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 29	I believe in God because I can't not believe in God. I grew up with this belief surrounding me and now that I am grown and able to question my beliefs and my environment, I have found that I cannot function in a world without something bigger than myself to govern it. Call it a failing, but I consider it a strength because I believe religion has served a useful and sometimes necessary function in society. It gives hope during tragedies and catastrophes; provides an answer for unknown mysteries such and death and sacrificial love; it creates unity within cultures and a set of unified moral codes to live by; it allows one to live without having to constantly reassess the basic tenets of the world around you; it creates hope where there is none; answers unanswerable questions; provides a means to ponder the mysteries of life; and helps me to feel that I'm not alone in the world. That some being understands my thoughts and struggles perfectly and cares enough about me to attend to them. That's why I believe there is a God; and to anybody that disagrees I respect and admire your position, because I know I don't have the strength to live without my belief. __________________ PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-20-2009, 09:14 PM	#192 (permalink)
midnight rain Music Addict Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,711	I believe in God. I also believe that proving his existence (or non-existence) through science and theory isn't possible, as so many try to do. And while some may consider that foolish and a cop out for believers, I think that's why religion is based on belief because, with proof, you don't need the willpower to believe, it's just the knowing. That probably made absolutely no sense, but I put it in the best terms I could think of. Feel free to let me know how wrong I am.

09-16-2009, 02:52 PM	#196 (permalink)
BoRox Groupie Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 23	Here's a simple mind experiment. Where did all the stuff come from. Not the Big Bang - what created the stuff inside the Big Bang before it exploded? The first law of thermodynamics says matter isn't created nor destroyed. Someone eternal had to cause it - named God.

09-16-2009, 03:04 PM	#198 (permalink)
BoRox Groupie Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 23	Janszoon - you're right! Something has to be eternal. Either we believe the atoms in our universe always existed or that an eternal power existed. I think believing that atoms were always here without a creator is pretty ridiculous.