This I Believe There is / is not a God

Dotoar · 01-21-2011, 09:25 AM

^Talking of god and all.

What I'm sincerely interested in is the, arguably very common, concept of agnosticism. There seems to be a lot of people claiming that they don't believe in god, but all the same thinks that "there must be something". Now, adressing all the closet agnostics in here, why must there be 'something', and what is the conception of that something if it's not ultimately a god?

SATCHMO · 01-21-2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotoar

^Talking of god and all.

What I'm sincerely interested in is the, arguably very common, concept of agnosticism. There seems to be a lot of people claiming that they don't believe in god, but all the same thinks that "there must be something". Now, addressing all the closet agnostics in here, why must there be 'something', and what is the conception of that something if it's not ultimately a god?

Agnosticism is the belief that it's impossible to know with absolute certainty whether there is, or is not a god, so judgment one way or the other, is suspended.

I believe there is something. It's just easier to say God then to give a crash course in quantum physics and transpersonal psychology. For all intents and purposes I'm actually an atheist, because I don't believe in an autonomous, anthropomorphic deity that thinks and acts in the way that humans do. I believe in the collective energy and consciousness of the universe, and to me my spirituality, my faith, is the dynamic between those two things, what I perceive as being God, and my own intention.

RVCA · 01-21-2011, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATCHMO

Agnosticism is the belief that it's impossible to know with absolute certainty whether there is, or is not a god, so judgment one way or the other, is suspended.

I believe there is something. It's just easier to say God then to give a crash course in quantum physics and transpersonal psychology. For all intents and purposes I'm actually an atheist, because I don't believe in an autonomous, anthropomorphic deity that thinks and acts in the way that humans do. I believe in the collective energy and consciousness of the universe, and to me my spirituality, my faith, is the dynamic between those two things, what I perceive as being God, and my own intention.

You must be a huge Sam Harris fan...

Blu · 01-21-2011, 08:34 PM

To be technical, there are 4 basic levels of belief.
Gnostic theist - I know there is a god/gods.
Agnostic theist - I believe there is a god/gods, but I can't be 100% sure.
Gnostic atheist- I know there are no gods.
Agnostic atheist - I don't believe there are gods, but I can't be 100% sure.
I am the last. One can be simply agnostic, if they aren't sure either way. There's also pantheists, deists, and others, but those are the main ones.

Dotoar · 01-22-2011, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATCHMO

Agnosticism is the belief that it's impossible to know with absolute certainty whether there is, or is not a god, so judgment one way or the other, is suspended.

I believe there is something. It's just easier to say God then to give a crash course in quantum physics and transpersonal psychology. For all intents and purposes I'm actually an atheist, because I don't believe in an autonomous, anthropomorphic deity that thinks and acts in the way that humans do. I believe in the collective energy and consciousness of the universe, and to me my spirituality, my faith, is the dynamic between those two things, what I perceive as being God, and my own intention.

Well, I'd call it faith in natural science, simply. The laws of nature and from what I read in your statement above I'd call you an atheist and not an agnostic, but to each his own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blu

To be technical, there are 4 basic levels of belief.
Gnostic theist - I know there is a god/gods.
Agnostic theist - I believe there is a god/gods, but I can't be 100% sure.
Gnostic atheist- I know there are no gods.
Agnostic atheist - I don't believe there are gods, but I can't be 100% sure.
I am the last. One can be simply agnostic, if they aren't sure either way. There's also pantheists, deists, and others, but those are the main ones.

The term 'agnostic atheist' is a contradiction, since an atheist by definition does not have a belief in any kind of deity whatsoever. Furthermore I don't see the use of dividing the 'belief' part from the 'theist' part, since a theist by definition has belief in a deity.

**Janszoon** · 01-22-2011, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotoar

The term 'agnostic atheist' is a contradiction, since an atheist by definition does not have a belief in any kind of deity whatsoever.

No it isn't. Agnosticism and atheism describe views on two different things. The former describes a viewpoint on the nature of knowledge while the later describes a viewpoint on the existence of a god or gods. You can most definitely be both.

Dotoar · 01-31-2011, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

No it isn't. Agnosticism and atheism describe views on two different things. The former describes a viewpoint on the nature of knowledge while the later describes a viewpoint on the existence of a god or gods. You can most definitely be both.

No, and for the very reasons ou point out. Atheism as a concept points to the lack of belief in deity, nothing less, nothing more, although its common extension is a viewpoint of knowledge, but not necessarily and not by definition. Agnosticism is the viewpoint where one believe we cannot know wether or not there is a deity, or to put it more crassly, a position where one avoids making a decision at all, although in the process you end up in a theist position since the possibility of a higher deity is by no means rejected. Thus, the two concepts are incompatible, because the very moment where one, even on a theroetical basis, takes a stand even for the mere possibility of a higher deity, one is rejecting the concept of atheism.

RVCA · 01-31-2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotoar

Atheism as a concept points to the lack of belief in deity, nothing less, nothing more

Agnosticism... is a position where one avoids making a decision at all, although in the process you end up in a theist position since the possibility of a higher deity is by no means rejected.

Lack of belief in deities is in no way mutually exclusive from avoiding to make a decision about deities. While you can lack belief because you haven't had the opportunity to form an opinion on the matter at hand (being unaware of said matter), you can also reject to form an opinion which results in lack of belief.

This video sums it up excellently.

"There is more than one way to lack belief in deities."

**Janszoon** · 01-31-2011, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotoar

No, and for the very reasons ou point out. Atheism as a concept points to the lack of belief in deity, nothing less, nothing more, although its common extension is a viewpoint of knowledge, but not necessarily and not by definition. Agnosticism is the viewpoint where one believe we cannot know wether or not there is a deity, or to put it more crassly, a position where one avoids making a decision at all, although in the process you end up in a theist position since the possibility of a higher deity is by no means rejected. Thus, the two concepts are incompatible, because the very moment where one, even on a theroetical basis, takes a stand even for the mere possibility of a higher deity, one is rejecting the concept of atheism.

They most certainly are compatible, for the reasons I have already described. Your logic is based on misperceptions that, while common, are nevertheless incorrect. There's a nice little explanation of how they're compatible here that might clarify things a bit.

Howard the Duck · 01-22-2011, 08:20 AM

well I'm a Jesus freak but I can't really take all the American right-wing dogma flying around in the Protestant churches here - Creationism, anti-Islam, worship of Israelites and whatnots

I'm going Catholic on your a$$

01-21-2011, 09:25 AM	#1 (permalink)
Dotoar Supernatural anaesthetist Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Örebro, Sweden Posts: 436	^Talking of god and all. What I'm sincerely interested in is the, arguably very common, concept of agnosticism. There seems to be a lot of people claiming that they don't believe in god, but all the same thinks that "there must be something". Now, adressing all the closet agnostics in here, why must there be 'something', and what is the conception of that something if it's not ultimately a god? __________________ - More is more -

01-21-2011, 08:34 PM	#4 (permalink)
Blu Groupie Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Montana Posts: 7	To be technical, there are 4 basic levels of belief. Gnostic theist - I know there is a god/gods. Agnostic theist - I believe there is a god/gods, but I can't be 100% sure. Gnostic atheist- I know there are no gods. Agnostic atheist - I don't believe there are gods, but I can't be 100% sure. I am the last. One can be simply agnostic, if they aren't sure either way. There's also pantheists, deists, and others, but those are the main ones. __________________

01-22-2011, 08:20 AM	#10 (permalink)
Howard the Duck Live by the Sword Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 9,075	well I'm a Jesus freak but I can't really take all the American right-wing dogma flying around in the Protestant churches here - Creationism, anti-Islam, worship of Israelites and whatnots I'm going Catholic on your a$$