right-track

Best post in this thread. ^

The onus isn't on disproving the existance of God but, on discovering what is the truth.
There is no reason to believe in anything of which there is no evidence.

cardboard adolescent

so you don't claim to know something but you do claim to know something? no, it's not the same thing, it's a flat-out contradiction.

still, i essentially see what you're saying. as kierkegaard put it, there is no room for faith without doubt.

what sort of evidence do you expect God to leave behind? it's like you're looking for God's signature in the world, when the world is God's signature. as Leibniz put it: "why is there something rather than nothing?" why do things want to exist? is it really that subjectivity is a phenomena of objects (what does that even mean?) or is it rather that objects (the very idea of an object) is a phenomena of subjectivity? everyone seems to start from what they don't know (ie, what they've been taught--science) rather from what they do know... emotions, interpersonal relationships, desire--for meaning, companionship, reward for overcoming urges that set us against others... why isn't all that evidence? basically what people seem to be looking for when they demand evidence of god's existence is a miracle, that is, they expect God to undo the logic of his own creation. why would he do that? because you want him to? the entire atheistic attitude towards God is entirely backwards, which is why they have a hard time understanding Christian arguments.

here's my suggestion, stop paying attention to fundamentalists, start reading Kierkegaard or Pascal.

even Schopenhauer, just to get over the stifling spirit of positivism. if the only connections you look for in life are factual connections, you won't get very far. in fact, nobody does this. everyone assumes, extrapolates, uses analogies and metaphors to understand things in general, in abstract.

it goes beyond that, it's not just that logic can only express our universe, logic in fact can only express itself. that is, logic can only express tautologies and the general logical form of the tautology, which is to say that logic can't really express anything. it's just a game with symbols and rules that define how the symbols interact--when you derive propositions from axioms you don't gain information, you only unfold the information in the axioms.

to wittgenstein!

6.41 The sense of the world must lie outside the world. In the world everything is as it is, and everything happens as it does happen: in it no value exists--and if it did exist, it would have no value.
If there is any value that does have value, it must lie outside the whole sphere of what happens and is the case. For all that happens and is the case is accidental.
What makes it non-accidental cannot lie within the world, since if it did it would itself be accidental.
It must lie outside the world.

by this, to deny God is to deny sense and meaning, which as I have already pointed out are subjective phenomena which compose the immediacy of our experience, rather than the mediated 'information' about the world we get through them.

boo boo

Yeah, but there is no evidence that god doesn't exist.

So I guess that means the only logical thing to believe in is "I dunno".

__________________
It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

boo boo

I'm aware that it's a contradiction.

But I'm inclined to believe there is a god and that's not something I can do anything about.

However I don't claim there to be any factual evidence for his existance. I guess you could call it faith, even though I'm not a spiritual person by any means.

__________________
It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

right-track

Non because he/she/it doesn't exist.

Who's looking for God's signature? Certainly not me.
Is there any evidence of God's signature? Certainly not, unless you can provide me with hard evidence of course.
And don't quote Leibniz because "why is there something rather than nothing?" is a question and not an answer. What kind of evidence is that other than an opinion.
Most people start out in life not with what they are taught but what they are told as children. This isn't learning btw. And for the most part children believe what they are told.
I was told Santa Claus was real, until it became obvious that he didn't exist.

"everyone seems to start from what they don't know (ie, what they've been taught--science) rather from what they do know... emotions, interpersonal relationships, desire--for meaning, companionship, reward for overcoming urges that set us against others... why isn't all that evidence?"

Is it possible these things you speak of are able to exist without God?

1. I don't.
2. Why should I? Do they provide hard evidence of God's existence? If not, I won't waste my time.


My opinions on the non existence/existence of God are based on complete lack of evidence. This doesn't make me any less spiritual than a christian, or any other deluded religious individual.
I consider myself spiritual when I listen to music, read poetry, wonder at the beauty of the universe, but I don't put these things down to a divine influence. I have no reason to.
There are lots of things in this world we can't disprove. What matters in life is what is true. God nor the universe care what I think. If there was no God would I be bereft of my emotions, my love of music, my sense of compassion with all things sentient?

boo boo

I'd rather believe in a boring god than a god that is pissed off all the time or a god that doesn't want us to take any role of responsibility in our own lives.

People may say that's a cruel god, to allow such suffering to take place in the world, but I dunno, to me that just makes god like a wildlife documentarian. A non interventionist who allows for us to have control over our own destiny. If anything that's the best possible kind of god to have.

__________________
It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

Terrible Lizard

The only evidence for a higher order is when someone does something foolishly selfless in a moment of desperation.

__________________
“YOU ARE SCUM SLUT.”
-John Martyn

CAPTAIN CAVEMAN

yeah that makes a lot of sense


who cares if there is a god or not anyways

boo boo

A sh*tload of people, apparently.

__________________
It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

Terrible Lizard

Self-sacrifice for complete strangers isn't coded in, it's a rejection of our base instinct of flight, a reflection of some higher understanding.

Or some **** to that effect. I'm just presenting ideas.

__________________
“YOU ARE SCUM SLUT.”
-John Martyn