Oh yay, another political thread! (Prop 8, gay marriage stuff)

[Anteater]

Well whoopty goddamndy doo!!! Cmon Ethan and Co., quit overgeneralizing this and realize that religion is not the root of all evil in this day and age. Idiots will always be idiots regardless of the source they cling to in place of their mental faculties, whether it be religion, the words of others, the media, etc. Also, there are plenty of folks here on the lower rungs of the societal ladder who are perfectly content to live in peace with oneanother despite our differences in theologic perception. Or are you saying that logical thought and a desire for harmony is beyond a Non-Denominational Christian like myself?

People need to be less concerned about society at large and instead work on rectifying their own behaviors. Only then will change (hopefully for the better) arrive in due course.

[sleepy jack]

Really? So you think by taking away rights from a minority they're promoting harmony? I really can't even begin to understand how religion isn't in the wrong here. Perhaps you could explain this to me.

I'm also curious to see how you can justify that religion teaches logical thought; seeing as faith is a very irrational thing and the bible has been proven time and time again to be historically inaccurate.

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

Really? So you think by taking away rights from a minority they're promoting harmony? I really can't even begin to understand how religion isn't in the wrong here. Perhaps you could explain this to me.

I'm also curious to see how you can justify that religion teaches logical thought; seeing as faith is a very irrational thing and the bible has been proven time and time again to be historically inaccurate.

You missed my point entirelly. I didn't say I supported the Bible or that the tome promoted logical thought now did I? I'm simply saying that people will discriminate and do awful things to one-another even if it isn't fueled by some kind of theistic/polytheistic dogma.

Second, I was also making a point that many people who profess to the Christian faith DO wish to live in peace with other people around them, and that from what I've been reading you appear to be generalizing that just because the Bible seems to encourage racism, sexism, ect in certain passages it entails that all Christians in the world RIGHT NOW follow those passages to the letter, which is not true at all.

[Son of JayJamJah]

Originally Posted by Anteater

You missed my point entirelly. I didn't say I supported the Bible or that the tome promoted logical thought now did I? I'm simply saying that people will discriminate and do awful things to one-another even if it isn't fueled by some kind of theistic/polytheistic dogma.

Second, I was also making a point that many people who profess to the Christian faith DO wish to live in peace with other people around them, and that from what I've been reading you appear to be generalizing that just because the Bible seems to encourage racism, sexism, ect in certain passages it entails that all Christians in the world RIGHT NOW follow those passages to the letter, which is not true at all.

I understand it could sound like he's implying that; but my problem (and I think his too) is that people use religion as crutch, as a justification for mean, selfish, bigoted and hateful behavior. There is nothing else in our society people use to justify awful behavior as widely accepted save for addiction and people go to rehab for that. Religion is an good and evil thing plain and simple. People can use it for good and people can use it for evil. The fact is no one "needs" it and it has no place in the life of anyone who doesn't want it in their life.

[Inuzuka Skysword]

I would say I am a very religious person yet I am politically active for a moral government in which the morals are grounded in reality. Basically an Objectivist government. Now I would debate, but I have school work to do. I am also a pacifist, but that is based on my religion so I don't force my government to turn that way.

[sleepy jack]

To me religion can has two faces; which are ultimately positive and negative. There's the light side of faith which is a charitable spirit and inner-peace, which is juxtaposed with the dark half; holy wars and bigotry. But ultimately the negative side outdoes the positive because the people who are incredibly zealous about their views tend to force it on the people who are more complacent who on their own probably wouldn't have cared. I mean if they really followed the bible I wouldn't have a problem with them in fact I'd encourage that sort of behavior. It always amazes me how Jesus had way more to say about poverty than abortion and gay marriage and yet you never hear Pat Robertson talk about giving to the poor.

I do however have a major problem with religious institutions and organized religions. I've grown up around churches and to argue they peace preach is ridiculous. I've seen evolution condemned as well as politicians on the far right praised. I once endured a sermon with a friend that can be summed up by this: "Give George W. Bush a break." I'm not a fan of ancient religions or ideas because I feel as a society we've progressed beyond that. We know what an atom is, we know where babies come from, we know about evolution, we don't need fictionalized tails told by men who were just trying to explain things they didn't know or the tales of schizophrenic men either. The bible is historically inaccurate, Jesus never existed and this argument that the tenacity of the idea gives them credibility is absurd.

I'm also strongly opposed to educating children to believe in these ideals. Externalizing blame is a bad thing, kids should learn young to accept and deal with blame and take responsibility. They shouldn't feel ashamed over natural things either and teaching them to judge things as either right or wrong is ridiculous; the world isn't that simple. I do think religious education is very interesting but I think it should be taught purely as a study of beliefs not as fact because that's like teaching people the world is flat. Religion is such a huge party of history and life though it should be taught and understood but I think it's more important critical thinking, logic and philosophy are introduced than fairytales.

There's this notion, particularly in America, that Atheism is bad and immoral and that's wrong and scary. Atheism is as natural as sex. I mean it's nice to know a lot about the bible and religion if you discuss it and argue with it as much as I do but atheism is the natural zero point so it's not their job to justify their stance or be knowledgeable about religion. Intellectual justification only belongs to people who believe they can survive their own death because a magical book about a space deity told them so.

I've gotten fairly boring with religious friends on this subject and while I'm ranting I'll go on about another thing. There's also this idea - usually presented by far right politicians like Sarah Palin or Mike Huckabee - that we've always been a very Christian country; that's not true. While it's true religion has deep roots in American history we've never been particular about the religion. Mormonism, Millerites, Spiritualism, Shakers, Oneida Society, etc...are all important to our history but they're not Christianity. Neither are more recent phenomena; like Heaven's Gate. Religious fanaticism as as American as apple pie but Christian religiosity and evangelicalism but it's only recently that's it become forced as it is now. Under God was only added to the pledge of allegiance in 1951 for instance. I just hate this society we live in...where Christianity is expected of you by the general populace. I just hate the arguments they pose; they think because I'm cynical and skeptical that I don't see any beauty in the world. Which is absurd, I just prefer logical ideas that have been proven. Evolution fascinates me; creationism baffles me and biblical history sounds like an absurdest fairytale.

The arguments I hear are incredibly stupid. "If you don't convert; you'll burn in hell forever" that's scaremongering. The inner-peace argument - how can you be happy or comforted without God in your life - baffles me even more. I don't understand how something that exists purely in your mind can comfort you more then you can yourself. I don't understand how you can claim your belief by citing the benefits of that belief either; it's like Pascal's Wager; completely useless. Just believing doesn't get you anywhere. I'd love to believe that tomorrow I'll be pretty, with a beautiful girlfriend and very rich but that doesn't mean I can believe in it. My mind prohibits such irrational and illogical thoughts and I don't think they're healthy. Atheism and Agnosticism are the only possible schools of thought that one can stand on when it comes to the unknown without dismissing logical thought.

[adidasss]

Iowa Court Says Gay Marriage Ban Is Unconstitutional

3 down, 47 to go.

Also: Sweden allows same-sex marriage

[Janszoon]

Originally Posted by adidasss

Iowa Court Says Gay Marriage Ban Is Unconstitutional

3 down, 47 to go.

I had been betting New Jersey would be the next one to allow it, looks like I was way off. It's pretty sweet that it was Iowa though.

Originally Posted by adidasss

Also: Sweden allows same-sex marriage

I have to admit, I thought they already did.

[The Unfan]

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I had been betting New Jersey would be the next one to allow it, looks like I was way off. It's pretty sweet that it was Iowa though.


I have to admit, I thought they already did.

We did, and then undid that decision, then we did it again, and undid the decision, and then we did it again.

[TheBig3]

Originally Posted by adidasss

Iowa Court Says Gay Marriage Ban Is Unconstitutional

3 down, 47 to go.

Also: Sweden allows same-sex marriage

Why are you waiting for us? Talk to Europe.