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Old 03-23-2009, 08:01 AM   #111 (permalink)
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The big bang was when space and time collided before that there was nothing...

I disagree, I think that previous to the Big Bang there was something, but one there was no time to measure what it was, and two taking Hartle-Hawking's idea is that the big bang was not the abrupt switching on of time at some singular first moment, but the emergence of time from space in an continuous manner. On a human time scale, the big bang was very much a sudden, explosive origin of space, time, and matter. But look very, very closely at that first tiny fraction of a second and you find that there was no precise and sudden beginning at all.



But this is off-topic.
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:30 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Actually, I personally believe that it was more or less the early Roman Catholic church. The council of Nicea (wiki that) in the 3rd century. was responsible for thee doctrine that basically said that being a christian meant believing in christs divinity, death and resurrection as a means of salvation. Then there's the great scourge of charlemagne, the crusades, the spanish inquisition yada, yaa, yada. I don't believe Christ's original followers had such huge sticks up their a$$es.
I was referring to the story of Genesis really (which is old Jewish law), but I do agree that the Catholic Church has greatly diluted and convoluted Christianity from what it originally was.
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:53 AM   #113 (permalink)
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I disagree, I think that previous to the Big Bang there was something, but one there was no time to measure what it was, and two taking Hartle-Hawking's idea is that the big bang was not the abrupt switching on of time at some singular first moment, but the emergence of time from space in an continuous manner. On a human time scale, the big bang was very much a sudden, explosive origin of space, time, and matter. But look very, very closely at that first tiny fraction of a second and you find that there was no precise and sudden beginning at all.



But this is off-topic.
Agreed that it is off topic,

My question to you would be what then? Simply because there has to be? Thats not a good enough reason. The honest answer is we will really never know. I will just continue on with my opinion. Maybe time was irrelevent since everything was traveling at the speed of light (stops time). Who knows.
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Old 03-23-2009, 11:43 AM   #114 (permalink)
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the fruit of the tree was science, which keeps us out of paradise. it's aristotle walking in circles in the cave. we've been doing it forever, time to take a breather.
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Old 03-23-2009, 11:55 AM   #115 (permalink)
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I thought life and sins were the things that keep people out of paradise.
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Old 03-23-2009, 01:24 PM   #116 (permalink)
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I hope your not expecting me to play apologetics here. My aim was not to get you to believe in christianity or even to defend it, but simply for you to not make the assumption that all of it's followers are gullible bible-thumping morons.
I am one of those rare people who picks and chooses what he believes from a wide varieties of faith because I do believe that all faiths have a certain degree of truth to them. And I find in most cases where the "facts" are disputable the metaphorical value that can be obtained from ignoring the literal and seeing through to the figurative is where wisdom is obtained. This is what is basically wrong with western religion. So much of peoples faith is exhausted on trying to believe in something literally, that no wisdom is able to penetrate into their lives.
Not to be offensive, but the same thing happens invertedly with atheists and reductionists.The "i'll believe it when I see it" mentality They become so obsessed with what can be proven scientifically that they ignore everything supernatural or metaphysical. Science has come a long way since Isaac newton died almost 300 years ago. Wev'e grown past reductionist based physical science and are well into the realm of quantum physics. Science and religion aren't really as at odds with each other as we used to think, and a lot of what we would have filed under supernatural 20 years ago is becoming widely accepted scientific theory. It takes a while for the general public to follow suit and internalize a new paradigm.
Creationism is still ridiculously stupid we can agree on that for now.
You can't say that science and religion aren't in conflict with one another. Take Christianity, the resurrection of Jesus, which is in no way taking figuratively as it's the central belief in Christianity, in order for it to be true it makes a claim about the way the world operates. This claim is contradictory to everything science has observed about death. I'm getting tired of saying this.

If your goal is to tell me that all Christians are not bible thumping morons then you didn't even really need to argue this since I'm aware they're not. It's not like I run around giving other people grief if they're going to a church or anything. I believe people should have their personal freedom to believe whatever they like until of course in their life, there beliefs start imposing on my life. However a sense of respect for personal ideas doesn't mean that their ideas are not silly. It also doesn't mean I have to treat their ideas as equal when they come up in discussion (they're not) or believe that they're not making a mistake.
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Old 03-23-2009, 02:02 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Agreed that it is off topic,

My question to you would be what then? Simply because there has to be? Thats not a good enough reason. The honest answer is we will really never know. I will just continue on with my opinion. Maybe time was irrelevent since everything was traveling at the speed of light (stops time). Who knows.
I really don't know why you expect me to know what was before, when not a single scientist could probably tell you what was before.

Your time irrelevant theory doesn't hold because of the time space continuum thing.

When looking at quantum mechanics and quantum cosmetology, you basically learn that time didn't always exists, but at the same time the big bang was not the first moment of time

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the fruit of the tree was science, which keeps us out of paradise. it's aristotle walking in circles in the cave. we've been doing it forever, time to take a breather.
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I thought life and sins were the things that keep people out of paradise.
I vaguely remember this so there's probably going to be holes in this, but if i'm right he is arguing the idea that when eve picked the fruit of the tree she had to stand up on a box (was it a box?) to get to the fruit, and therefore she is using science. Upon using this "science" to get the fruit she is abandoning something (i wish I could remember) and now can judge evil and good. She now has consciousness. This consciousness keeps us out of paradise, because as long as we continue to judge what is evil and good we cannot be in paradise.

Or you could just take the view that science keeps us from paradise because science is empirical in nature, and the religion in the supernatural, so you can't believe in both empirical ways of seeing things and religious ways.


pick which ever one pleases you the most.
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Old 03-23-2009, 02:06 PM   #118 (permalink)
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I think my brain just exploded.... If you cant prove anything is there then what do you really know? Time started for us when this event happened period. Reason? Cause thats all we have.
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Old 03-23-2009, 02:28 PM   #119 (permalink)
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I vaguely remember this so there's probably going to be holes in this, but if i'm right he is arguing the idea that when eve picked the fruit of the tree she had to stand up on a box (was it a box?) to get to the fruit, and therefore she is using science. Upon using this "science" to get the fruit she is abandoning something (i wish I could remember) and now can judge evil and good. She now has consciousness. This consciousness keeps us out of paradise, because as long as we continue to judge what is evil and good we cannot be in paradise.

Or you could just take the view that science keeps us from paradise because science is empirical in nature, and the religion in the supernatural, so you can't believe in both empirical ways of seeing things and religious ways.


pick which ever one pleases you the most.
she's abandoning her dependence on god. but crap, i've never heard about this box business before, i was taking it more on a metaphorical level.

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I thought life and sins were the things that keep people out of paradise.
life=sin=science. science is becoming so fascinated with the shadows in the cave that you try to map the relations between shadows, how one shadow gives rise to another, it is essentially a method of getting so lost in the shadows that you can't find your way back out. now to say that this is "sin" or "evil" is laughable to me, but it does lead to an estrangement from god.
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Old 03-23-2009, 02:59 PM   #120 (permalink)
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I think my brain just exploded.... If you cant prove anything is there then what do you really know? Time started for us when this event happened period. Reason? Cause thats all we have.
No that's not true. Read up about quantum mechanics and quantum cosmetology and you'll understand. I really am not up for giving a science lesson today.

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she's abandoning her dependence on god. but crap, i've never heard about this box business before, i was taking it more on a metaphorical level.
The box has to do with the fact that since she was a woman (and women were short back then) she would have been unable to reach the tree on her own and would have had to use some sort of primitive technology to reach the fruit of the tree.

take that as you will.
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