Solipsism Syndrome

cardboard adolescent · 03-24-2010, 12:29 PM

Indeed. I think where the illusion comes in is that we mistake a particular manifestation of energy for a particular soul, so we believe that everyone has an individual soul or whatever, when really the soul is just the container inside which energy can "happen," and that container is space-time (which provides the contraction to counterbalance the expansion of matter/energy)... and the really crazy part is that energy itself is nothing but a modification (a bending to infinity) of space-time (just as space-time is nothing but the modification of energy... a finite bending). So the soul is this container for life that we are all inside of, but we are also part of it because it extends outwards and forms us.

Neapolitan · 03-24-2010, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

Indeed. ... and the really crazy part is that energy itself is nothing but a modification (a bending to infinity) of space-time (just as space-time is nothing but the modification of energy... a finite bending). So the soul is this container for life that we are all inside of, but we are also part of it because it extends outwards and forms us.

And the real crazy part for me is that I feel like I have a LD when I read your posts.

Guybrush · 03-25-2010, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

you don't believe in things that have no energy and no mass? does that mean you don't believe in space-time? maybe the soul is just another way of understanding space-time, eh?

I think you need to read what I write.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I don't believe in things which have no energy and no mass and can't possibly be measured in any way.

I think of space and time as measurable. I do it every time I get up and try to reach my lectures on time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnard17

Asinine post of the day goes to cardboard.

Agreed.

cardboard adolescent · 03-25-2010, 02:34 AM

My point was that you can only measure space-time in terms of energy and matter, so in effect space-time is the hidden side of matter-energy which we don't perceive but infer (intuit? all I'm trying to say is that neither space or time can be made an object). I think the relationship between the soul and mind-body is the same. We can't physically locate or draw a picture of the soul, but we can experience it/know it through the effects it has on the mind and body.

And, what I was then saying, is that those effects are just the effects of space and time (encapsulating mind and body).

Guybrush · 03-25-2010, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

, but we can experience it/know it through the effects it has on the mind and body.

What effects are those?

duga · 03-25-2010, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

My point was that you can only measure space-time in terms of energy and matter, so in effect space-time is the hidden side of matter-energy which we don't perceive but infer (intuit? all I'm trying to say is that neither space or time can be made an object). I think the relationship between the soul and mind-body is the same. We can't physically locate or draw a picture of the soul, but we can experience it/know it through the effects it has on the mind and body.

And, what I was then saying, is that those effects are just the effects of space and time (encapsulating mind and body).

I must have totally misunderstood what you were trying to say earlier, because I don't agree with this...there are no direct effects the "soul" has on anything. I believe it is there simply because self awareness is not required for living, yet we have it...but even so, that is just a belief I have. It can easily be argued that absolutely everything we experience comes just from the brain and nothing more. No soul involved whatsoever. This is why debates like these can continue indefinitely in the first place.

Guybrush · 03-25-2010, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

I must have totally misunderstood what you were trying to say earlier, because I don't agree with this...there are no direct effects the "soul" has on anything. I believe it is there simply because self awareness is not required for living, yet we have it...

Our intelligence and self-awareness seems to me to be a perfectly natural consequence of an evolutionary process. It's a consequence of natural and sexual selection. The wording is important, we have it because it's a consequence, not because it's a need. Evolution doesn't operate with needs which suggests a directional selection to the point of intentional. If you create a fish, it will needs gills to breathe in water so you as a creator create them. However, evolution is a process of continous interacting causes and consequences which simply favour whatever works at the moment and moments go from one moment to the next which might be significantly different from the previous. Like self-awareness, life doesn't need legs to live, nor arms or buttocks. Yet we have them. Many organisms don't and get on perfectly well.

As a more general contribution on the topic of souls ..

Modern biology is capable of explaining why we became self-aware and we're understanding more and more of the miracles of the brain and it's capacity for creating our thoughts and personalities so the idea that we have souls becomes more and more redundant. We don't need it anymore to explain why there's thoughts going on in the darkness behind our eyes, even as we sleep.

As biology can explain how we got our heads and the biological processes that go on in them, it should be easy for anyone with a little psychological insight to see what makes the idea of souls so attractive, so the persistence and popularity of the soul idea is explainable as well. Generally speaking, the only thing which can't be explained is souls as a true concept.

If you want to elevate the idea of souls onto some higher metaphysical plane of existence with consequences reaching far beyond whatever ideas religions have promoted so far, well .. I can see why some might find that an interesting topic to discuss, so I'll respect those who think so and try to stay out of it!

duga · 03-26-2010, 05:11 PM

^

That is why I don't believe in each person having a unique and individual soul, as I mentioned earlier, but a kind of "oneness" connected to life. There is absolutely no evidence that we consist of two separate entities (a body and a soul). Dualism is what lead to categorizing and separating everything we see, which in turn lead to an "us and them" mentality.

You do make an interesting point about self awareness being a consequence of our evolution. I knew what caused it, but never really thought about it in that way exactly. Here is an interesting question, then...is self awareness helping or hurting us? Would we be able to live more in harmony with the Earth if we were not self aware? Assuming we still have this average level of intelligence, minus self awareness, would we still be able to make the advances we have made?

Guybrush · 03-26-2010, 05:48 PM

I don't think we'd be more harmonious with the earth if we were not self-aware. I think the idea that animals are in some kind of harmony with nature is a romanticized version of the truth. Even though most of them are by our understanding not self-aware, they're still driven by the same basic selfishness we are. The selfishness stems from the fact that it's the ones who are good at passing on their genes who persist. That does not equal the most harmonious, in fact it often means what we think of as the contrary.

Here's a video from youtube which illustrates my point. It shows infanticide in the animal world, a male lion killing several lion cubs.

It makes perfect sense to do it. They're not his cubs and if they grow up, they could be competitors. Even more important, while the females are weening the cubs, they can't be pregnated by him. If he kills them, the females will get ready to mate again and he can pass on his own genes. The males who employ this strategy do well and pass it on to their offspring and the same is seen in many other species. If they can use resources of the earth to better spread their genes, such adaptive strategies can and will evolve as well - and they have. Animals use the earth as well without any special regard for treating it nice. In Norway, we used to have lemming cycles until recently where the little buggers would come and eat everything during peak years.

The main difference between them and us is that we're smarter so we're better at it. There's a popular myth that humans are "evil" animals. Actually, as an example comparison, populations of chimpanzees, Pan troglodytes, can be 1000 times more violent than human populations .. at least according to a professor who lectured in a primate behavioural ecology course!

duga · 03-26-2010, 06:28 PM

I had no allusions about perceived "evil" behavior of animals. What I meant by harmony could be phrased more like...they follow the Earth's natural patterns. Most animals, save for human interaction, keep a balance through the food chain, environmental conditions, and natural selection. Humans have all but done away with natural selection in the classic sense (and this could spark a whole other debate, I know). Humans do anything but keep with the Earth's natural activity. In fact, we do all we can to control it. The biggest problem I see that comes out of this is overpopulation. We keep the sick and old living for as long as we possibly can, which ends up costing us vital resources for the young and potentially healthy. Of course, this could spark a moral debate, but since it is completely pointless to deal in morals when we were just talking about animal behavior that could be considered "evil", I felt I should mention it.

I guess what I really want to know is how you think self awareness has impacted our behavior as animals. Would we have the same moral standards if we did not have self awareness?

03-26-2010, 05:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	^ That is why I don't believe in each person having a unique and individual soul, as I mentioned earlier, but a kind of "oneness" connected to life. There is absolutely no evidence that we consist of two separate entities (a body and a soul). Dualism is what lead to categorizing and separating everything we see, which in turn lead to an "us and them" mentality. You do make an interesting point about self awareness being a consequence of our evolution. I knew what caused it, but never really thought about it in that way exactly. Here is an interesting question, then...is self awareness helping or hurting us? Would we be able to live more in harmony with the Earth if we were not self aware? Assuming we still have this average level of intelligence, minus self awareness, would we still be able to make the advances we have made? __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

03-26-2010, 05:48 PM	#9 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	I don't think we'd be more harmonious with the earth if we were not self-aware. I think the idea that animals are in some kind of harmony with nature is a romanticized version of the truth. Even though most of them are by our understanding not self-aware, they're still driven by the same basic selfishness we are. The selfishness stems from the fact that it's the ones who are good at passing on their genes who persist. That does not equal the most harmonious, in fact it often means what we think of as the contrary. Here's a video from youtube which illustrates my point. It shows infanticide in the animal world, a male lion killing several lion cubs. It makes perfect sense to do it. They're not his cubs and if they grow up, they could be competitors. Even more important, while the females are weening the cubs, they can't be pregnated by him. If he kills them, the females will get ready to mate again and he can pass on his own genes. The males who employ this strategy do well and pass it on to their offspring and the same is seen in many other species. If they can use resources of the earth to better spread their genes, such adaptive strategies can and will evolve as well - and they have. Animals use the earth as well without any special regard for treating it nice. In Norway, we used to have lemming cycles until recently where the little buggers would come and eat everything during peak years. The main difference between them and us is that we're smarter so we're better at it. There's a popular myth that humans are "evil" animals. Actually, as an example comparison, populations of chimpanzees, Pan troglodytes, can be 1000 times more violent than human populations .. at least according to a professor who lectured in a primate behavioural ecology course! __________________ Something Completely Different

03-26-2010, 06:28 PM	#10 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	I had no allusions about perceived "evil" behavior of animals. What I meant by harmony could be phrased more like...they follow the Earth's natural patterns. Most animals, save for human interaction, keep a balance through the food chain, environmental conditions, and natural selection. Humans have all but done away with natural selection in the classic sense (and this could spark a whole other debate, I know). Humans do anything but keep with the Earth's natural activity. In fact, we do all we can to control it. The biggest problem I see that comes out of this is overpopulation. We keep the sick and old living for as long as we possibly can, which ends up costing us vital resources for the young and potentially healthy. Of course, this could spark a moral debate, but since it is completely pointless to deal in morals when we were just talking about animal behavior that could be considered "evil", I felt I should mention it. I guess what I really want to know is how you think self awareness has impacted our behavior as animals. Would we have the same moral standards if we did not have self awareness? __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

03-24-2010, 12:29 PM	#1 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,511	Indeed. I think where the illusion comes in is that we mistake a particular manifestation of energy for a particular soul, so we believe that everyone has an individual soul or whatever, when really the soul is just the container inside which energy can "happen," and that container is space-time (which provides the contraction to counterbalance the expansion of matter/energy)... and the really crazy part is that energy itself is nothing but a modification (a bending to infinity) of space-time (just as space-time is nothing but the modification of energy... a finite bending). So the soul is this container for life that we are all inside of, but we are also part of it because it extends outwards and forms us.

03-25-2010, 02:34 AM	#4 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,511	My point was that you can only measure space-time in terms of energy and matter, so in effect space-time is the hidden side of matter-energy which we don't perceive but infer (intuit? all I'm trying to say is that neither space or time can be made an object). I think the relationship between the soul and mind-body is the same. We can't physically locate or draw a picture of the soul, but we can experience it/know it through the effects it has on the mind and body. And, what I was then saying, is that those effects are just the effects of space and time (encapsulating mind and body).