Solipsism Syndrome

duga · 03-23-2010, 09:55 PM

^

It may be semantics, but it is hardly a strawman argument. It is a discussion that spawned over the confusion using the word "soul" caused. As I mentioned, if you didn't intend to mean "soul" in the classic sense, you shouldn't use that word (unless you explain why you are using it).

Neapolitan · 03-23-2010, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

^

It may be semantics, but it is hardly a strawman argument.

Is that in reference to "space-time" or "soul"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

It is a discussion that spawned over the confusion using the word "soul" caused. As I mentioned, if you didn't intend to mean "soul" in the classic sense, you shouldn't use that word (unless you explain why you are using it.

I thought Boo clear that up for you?
and btw If I say I like soul food I have to explain myself by what I mean by soul? dts

duga · 03-23-2010, 11:12 PM

^

He DID clear it up, but a discussion obviously continued. And if you said soul food then I would need no further explanation because there is an actual CONTEXT for me to base your meaning off of. If we are talking about spiritual souls and you say soul, how am I supposed to know you are talking about something else?

This is getting really old...time to move it on.

The point I was making earlier is that we are obviously experiencing something. Even if it is all a trick or dream, we have to exist in some capacity to be tricked.

cardboard adolescent · 03-24-2010, 11:29 AM

Indeed. I think where the illusion comes in is that we mistake a particular manifestation of energy for a particular soul, so we believe that everyone has an individual soul or whatever, when really the soul is just the container inside which energy can "happen," and that container is space-time (which provides the contraction to counterbalance the expansion of matter/energy)... and the really crazy part is that energy itself is nothing but a modification (a bending to infinity) of space-time (just as space-time is nothing but the modification of energy... a finite bending). So the soul is this container for life that we are all inside of, but we are also part of it because it extends outwards and forms us.

Neapolitan · 03-24-2010, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

Indeed. ... and the really crazy part is that energy itself is nothing but a modification (a bending to infinity) of space-time (just as space-time is nothing but the modification of energy... a finite bending). So the soul is this container for life that we are all inside of, but we are also part of it because it extends outwards and forms us.

And the real crazy part for me is that I feel like I have a LD when I read your posts.

Guybrush · 03-25-2010, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

you don't believe in things that have no energy and no mass? does that mean you don't believe in space-time? maybe the soul is just another way of understanding space-time, eh?

I think you need to read what I write.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I don't believe in things which have no energy and no mass and can't possibly be measured in any way.

I think of space and time as measurable. I do it every time I get up and try to reach my lectures on time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnard17

Asinine post of the day goes to cardboard.

Agreed.

cardboard adolescent · 03-25-2010, 01:34 AM

My point was that you can only measure space-time in terms of energy and matter, so in effect space-time is the hidden side of matter-energy which we don't perceive but infer (intuit? all I'm trying to say is that neither space or time can be made an object). I think the relationship between the soul and mind-body is the same. We can't physically locate or draw a picture of the soul, but we can experience it/know it through the effects it has on the mind and body.

And, what I was then saying, is that those effects are just the effects of space and time (encapsulating mind and body).

Guybrush · 03-25-2010, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

, but we can experience it/know it through the effects it has on the mind and body.

What effects are those?

duga · 03-25-2010, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

My point was that you can only measure space-time in terms of energy and matter, so in effect space-time is the hidden side of matter-energy which we don't perceive but infer (intuit? all I'm trying to say is that neither space or time can be made an object). I think the relationship between the soul and mind-body is the same. We can't physically locate or draw a picture of the soul, but we can experience it/know it through the effects it has on the mind and body.

And, what I was then saying, is that those effects are just the effects of space and time (encapsulating mind and body).

I must have totally misunderstood what you were trying to say earlier, because I don't agree with this...there are no direct effects the "soul" has on anything. I believe it is there simply because self awareness is not required for living, yet we have it...but even so, that is just a belief I have. It can easily be argued that absolutely everything we experience comes just from the brain and nothing more. No soul involved whatsoever. This is why debates like these can continue indefinitely in the first place.

Guybrush · 03-25-2010, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

I must have totally misunderstood what you were trying to say earlier, because I don't agree with this...there are no direct effects the "soul" has on anything. I believe it is there simply because self awareness is not required for living, yet we have it...

Our intelligence and self-awareness seems to me to be a perfectly natural consequence of an evolutionary process. It's a consequence of natural and sexual selection. The wording is important, we have it because it's a consequence, not because it's a need. Evolution doesn't operate with needs which suggests a directional selection to the point of intentional. If you create a fish, it will needs gills to breathe in water so you as a creator create them. However, evolution is a process of continous interacting causes and consequences which simply favour whatever works at the moment and moments go from one moment to the next which might be significantly different from the previous. Like self-awareness, life doesn't need legs to live, nor arms or buttocks. Yet we have them. Many organisms don't and get on perfectly well.

As a more general contribution on the topic of souls ..

Modern biology is capable of explaining why we became self-aware and we're understanding more and more of the miracles of the brain and it's capacity for creating our thoughts and personalities so the idea that we have souls becomes more and more redundant. We don't need it anymore to explain why there's thoughts going on in the darkness behind our eyes, even as we sleep.

As biology can explain how we got our heads and the biological processes that go on in them, it should be easy for anyone with a little psychological insight to see what makes the idea of souls so attractive, so the persistence and popularity of the soul idea is explainable as well. Generally speaking, the only thing which can't be explained is souls as a true concept.

If you want to elevate the idea of souls onto some higher metaphysical plane of existence with consequences reaching far beyond whatever ideas religions have promoted so far, well .. I can see why some might find that an interesting topic to discuss, so I'll respect those who think so and try to stay out of it!

03-23-2010, 09:55 PM	#91 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	^ It may be semantics, but it is hardly a strawman argument. It is a discussion that spawned over the confusion using the word "soul" caused. As I mentioned, if you didn't intend to mean "soul" in the classic sense, you shouldn't use that word (unless you explain why you are using it). __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

03-23-2010, 11:12 PM	#93 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	^ He DID clear it up, but a discussion obviously continued. And if you said soul food then I would need no further explanation because there is an actual CONTEXT for me to base your meaning off of. If we are talking about spiritual souls and you say soul, how am I supposed to know you are talking about something else? This is getting really old...time to move it on. The point I was making earlier is that we are obviously experiencing something. Even if it is all a trick or dream, we have to exist in some capacity to be tricked. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

03-24-2010, 11:29 AM	#94 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	Indeed. I think where the illusion comes in is that we mistake a particular manifestation of energy for a particular soul, so we believe that everyone has an individual soul or whatever, when really the soul is just the container inside which energy can "happen," and that container is space-time (which provides the contraction to counterbalance the expansion of matter/energy)... and the really crazy part is that energy itself is nothing but a modification (a bending to infinity) of space-time (just as space-time is nothing but the modification of energy... a finite bending). So the soul is this container for life that we are all inside of, but we are also part of it because it extends outwards and forms us.

03-25-2010, 01:34 AM	#97 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	My point was that you can only measure space-time in terms of energy and matter, so in effect space-time is the hidden side of matter-energy which we don't perceive but infer (intuit? all I'm trying to say is that neither space or time can be made an object). I think the relationship between the soul and mind-body is the same. We can't physically locate or draw a picture of the soul, but we can experience it/know it through the effects it has on the mind and body. And, what I was then saying, is that those effects are just the effects of space and time (encapsulating mind and body).