Lets just bail out the world (techno, country, American, effect)

Trauma · 01-28-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

It wouldn't be 4.00 a gallon if there were no taxes. There is way to much regulation in the business world from minimum wage to anti-trust laws.

Okay Ayn Rand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

They are not deregulating enough. Moderated capitalism is worse than socialism.

The U.S.???
And what does "moderated capitalism is worse than socialism" even mean?

Is socialism an inherently bad idea?

Definition:
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Sounds like your only beef is wanting to have Adam Smith's children.

sleepy jack · 01-28-2009, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

I agree. What you want to do is hold a gun to a business man's head and tell him to cater. I say that the man should cater and succeed if he wants to. If he doesn't then he doesn't succeed.

This is attacking a point that I am pretty sure I didn't make. The points I made were:

The government is forcing taxpayers to pay for a failed business that has nothing to do with me (the individual).
American liberalism is hypocritical because they don't want to bail out companies that pay taxes to their welfare.

Number two was a generalization, but it is true for a lot of people.

Again, I don't want to force businesses into catering to anyone. That is slavery.

Nobody would have to bail out anybody if there was no welfare. The thing is, America runs on the taxes of the upper class/middle class. If the only people who were going to lose out were stockholders/people related to the business then this wouldn't have happened. However, we have entangled each other into our lives with welfare. A lot of people are now depending on other people to work for them. It isn't like it is voluntary either. It is at gun point.

Secondly, freer economies bring more successful businesses. Our economy has never been a completely free economy. In fact, what we live under right now is VERY restricted capitalism. So the notion that businesses fail under capitalism is false because we operate under the absolute worst economic system, moderated capitalism or mixed economy.

They are not deregulating enough. Moderated capitalism is worse than socialism.

lol.

How can the first bold statement and the second bold statement both be true?

We have operated under a completely free economy before. If you thought corporate fraud was an offshoot of government intervention than you're dead wrong. The government's hand was forced in because businesses don't operate on some Randian code rationality they just want to make money...which means taking advantage of people. I understand you think progressive presidents are evil socialists but they didn't create recessions and economic problems you know in fact their policies have helped pull us out of them. Economies naturally go through ups and downs; having some regulation isn't what causes the downs.

Dr_Rez · 01-28-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

I have stated I am against the bail out. My point is the fact that you are blaming the bail out on big businesses taking risks. Sorry, the bail out is a cause of the government meddling with the economy.

Your right, the conservative view is perfect. Who would want the government raising minimum wage, staying out of wars we shouldn't be in, and giving the people health care. That would just be stupid.

Almost every big recession and war has happened on a Republicans watch. Just look at the 3 depressions this country has been in. Big business is the newest for a capitalism in the United States. If you actually think they should not cater to the public thats absurd. When there working conditions are **** and they pay less than the rising cost of living I would say that's a bad thing. As Wayfarer said, they have proven themselves incompetent and unable to run things on there own because of corporate greed and bad decision making.

Dr_Rez · 01-28-2009, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

all minimum wage does is keep the poorest of the poor out of work as the price of low-skilled labour is set artificially high, not to mention the fact that it imposes far higher costs on small businesses attempting to compete with massive corporations such as McDonald's or Wal-Mart.

So your perfectly ok with someone who is trying to get by on 7.15 an hour when inflation brings up prices much faster than their wages are ever going up? The city were a grew up, many people could barely pay there bills, and if minimum wage ere any lower or not rising the would have been forced to move into even worse living conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

you do realize that the libertarian stance is one of non-intervention, don't you?

Im fully aware of what a libertarian wants, besides the obvious (partial) ridding of the state or ruling government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

"universal health care in America would be bloody tragic, especially right now. when the government holds a coercive monopoly on something (for instance, health care), all competition is stifled and thus prices can (and assuredly will) be driven as high as possible."

Thats almost a joke. Look at the price of health insurance right now. Its ****ing ridiculous. So many people cant afford it as it is. And the price would go way down if it were nationalized, the only problem also being the quality would fall with it. My father who worked for Blue Cross, Cigna, and Health America for 15 years constantly says that the one thing there company is most afraid of is Universal Healthcare. It would create a quality issue with everyone and they would make almost no money because of the lowered costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

the U.S. has been through more than three depressions and not one was a result of libertarian policies.

There have really only been 3 major depressions from 20th century on. First in the 30's (Great Depression). The reason being because of how this country was run throughout the 20's. During that time there was 3 Republican presidents Harding, Coolridge, and Hoover. And yes they were for personal freedoms. The last 2 were very similar because this country seems to make the same mistakes over and over again. (Just like the 70's when the rich poor gap grew incrediblybecause of the oil barrens)

unequal distribution of wealth - That is what happens when minimum wages are not raised, and corporate America is hand fed everything they need.

Yukon Cornelius · 01-28-2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RezZ

So your perfectly ok with someone who is trying to get by on 7.15 an hour when inflation brings up prices much faster than their wages are ever going up? The city were a grew up, many people could barely pay there bills, and if minimum wage ere any lower or not rising the would have been forced to move into even worse living conditions.

Don't forget with this statement that these minimum wage jobs are jobs none the less. Also you must hold your own self responsible for what you have become. Every decision you have made is cause and effect of everything you have done up until this very day. Are you the person asking if you would like to super size? If so to me you are either young 15-20 or you are someone who has had problems in the past.

Quote:

That's almost a joke. Look at the price of health insurance right now. Its ****ing ridiculous. So many people cant afford it as it is. And the price would go way down if it were nationalized, the only problem also being the quality would fall with it. My father who worked for Blue Cross, Cigna, and Health America for 15 years constantly says that the one thing there company is most afraid of is Universal Healthcare. It would create a quality issue with everyone and they would make almost no money because of the lowered costs.

Once again the average greedy American feels he/she is owed something for nothing. There are more people worried about American Idol than f-ing health care. This is the problem with the world today. We need to remember this is not all one way. And for the people who have done well?? Should we tax the f out of them for there hard work and dedication?? Dont give me any "I didnt have a chance crap because there are ways to get ahead though ultimately its up to you.

Once i did a charity drive for the angle tree (free X-mas toys and what have you) and i was in awe to see that the ppl coming to get free toys were driving in 40000 dollar Cadillac Escalades and had about what my car was worth in rims... I know it might sound racial but its not these ppl were of all races. Tell me that its not the greedy American?

Dr_Rez · 01-28-2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

you completely missed my point. advocates argue that it is necessary in order lower poverty and that it can magically be done by increasing the minimum wage, but what they fail to realize is that an increased minimum wage comes with significant negative consequences, particularly for the very people it is designed to help. when the minimum wage rises, employers will often respond by not only reducing the amount of workers they employ, but also by reducing the amount of hours their employees work. to put it simply, it keeps the unemployed unemployed.

I feel the same way in that you have missed my point. I am not talking about raising wages to put more money in someones pocket because they want it, but to have wages AT LEAST match the rate of inflation. When that rises above wages it causes many more problems than it solves. That is a simple moral issue that I feel everyone should agree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

if you think America has a privatized health care system right now you're horribly misinformed.

Yes, much of America's healthcare is privately run. We have no consistent system as it is constantly all over the place. Government run programs only cover a small percentage of people. Ill say this once... WE HAVE A PUBLIC/PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

there's been one depression from the 20th century on.

The 1970's recession caused by oil was a huge hit on this country. If you don't call that a depression I don't know what is. And what do you call what we are in now??? Most of the country lost a large portion of there savings, another credit crisis, and worst of all the housing market has caused banks to collapse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

...well, yes, it's your fault. it's certainly moreso your fault than it is some rich guy you've never met's fault. why should he have to pay your way? the Declaration of Independence states that all men are created equal, not that all men should be kept equal.

I did not say it was anyone in particulars fault. What I DID say was that is is not always the persons fault. There are many factors that play into this that you are simple ignoring.

Also, we are not talking about giving people free rides or being created equal. It has to do with the fact that EVERY citizen should be able to get a chance to move up in society. That is the reason this country is known as "the land of opportunity". Moving up in class and stature are critical to the way everything works. The government and the rich would like everyone to think that if a person is of a lower class it is always entirely there fault. Point is they want to stay in power and in the ruling class.

This is simple sociology. (Which of coarse is slowly being eliminated by the government and rich)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

how is this necessarily true in any way?

Pretty simple... You get layed off and there are no jobs that you can immediately go to. You still need money to pay rent/etc so what do you do? Get the only jobs available which happen to be underpaid minimum wage jobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

i don't support trickle-down economics either, but this is just an outright lie.

Same argument I have been making this entire time. Workers had terrible working conditions, very low wages, while the upper class business owners received government help and did nothing about it.

Yukon Cornelius · 01-28-2009, 10:19 AM

^^^ you dont have an option^^

Yukon Cornelius · 01-28-2009, 12:33 PM

The government does not control gas prices opec does.. Thats were a S%^& ton of your problem is. So no one can afford to go any where and nobody can spend on anything else... 4.00 a gallon rediculious

Inuzuka Skysword · 01-28-2009, 12:45 PM

It wouldn't be 4.00 a gallon if there were no taxes. There is way to much regulation in the business world from minimum wage to anti-trust laws.

Yukon Cornelius · 01-28-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

It wouldn't be 4.00 a gallon if there were no taxes. There is way to much regulation in the business world from minimum wage to anti-trust laws.

Agreed, however the same amount of tax is applied as it was when gas was below a dollar. Yes they are making more of course as crude oil prices rise but its still the same amount which is why gas is now lower than it has been in about 3 to 4 years.

Of course the rising number of jobs lost and cars repo'ed probably has ppl doing a f ton of walking. that in its own right snuffs the demand.

01-28-2009, 10:19 AM	#7 (permalink)
Yukon Cornelius Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 625	^^^ you dont have an option^^ __________________ Attempting to find a cure for Stupid...

01-28-2009, 12:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
Yukon Cornelius Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 625	The government does not control gas prices opec does.. Thats were a S%^& ton of your problem is. So no one can afford to go any where and nobody can spend on anything else... 4.00 a gallon rediculious __________________ Attempting to find a cure for Stupid...

01-28-2009, 12:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
Inuzuka Skysword Existential Egoist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,468	It wouldn't be 4.00 a gallon if there were no taxes. There is way to much regulation in the business world from minimum wage to anti-trust laws.