75 Year Old Saudi Woman Sentenced To Lashes... (Religious, members, quotes)

ProggyMan · 03-20-2009, 04:52 PM

Way to not answer the point.

~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ · 03-20-2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukon Cornelius

We as Americans have human rights .... So feel blessed.

.

sleepy jack · 03-21-2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonace

Okay let me clear some stuff up as someone who has actually read the Bible in it's entirety. Women are not told to be "silent slaves" to their husbands. Rather, the husband is supposed to be head of the family. That doesn't mean he makes all of the desicions, but that means he has the responsibility to care for the family. The woman is thus "in subjection" to the husband as the husband is "in subjection" to the Christ, as Christ is in subjection to God.

Paul wrote to the Christian congregation in Corinth: “As in all the congregations of the holy ones, let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak.” (1 Corinthians 14:33, 34) In order for us to understand this correctly, it is helpful to consider the context of Paul’s counsel.

In 1 Corinthians chapter 14, Paul discussed matters relating to meetings of the Christian congregation. He described what should be discussed at such meetings and recommended how they should be conducted. (1 Corinthians 14:1-6, 26-34) Further, he stressed the objective of Christian meetings—“that the congregation may receive upbuilding.”—1 Corinthians 14:4, 5, 12, 26.

Paul’s instruction to “keep silent” appears three times in 1 Corinthians chapter 14. Each time, it is addressed to a different group in the congregation, but in all instances, it is given for the same reason—that “all things take place decently and by arrangement.”—1 Corinthians 14:40.

Paul was giving instruction on how the congregation should do things, that the men of the congregation should handle matters. Women are not told that they shouldn't speak in the churches, thats taking it out of context.

Last time I checked the Bible in no place justifies a democratic approach to governing a family as your first paragraph suggests. Either way you're still saying that, from a Biblical perspective, a woman should subvert her own will to that of the male. Why? What justification is there for the man to be the head of the household over the woman? That's inequality, there's no reason a woman can't be the head of the household or that they can't, shock-shock, govern it as equal authority figures. You didn't even counter that inherent sexism in that biblical logic you only softened up it up.

I'd also like you to explain 1 Timothy 2:9-15, which teaches that woman should never be allowed to teach, must learn in complete silence and are never superior to men under any circumstances.

~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ · 03-21-2009, 09:24 PM

Let me do some more research, give me a day or two. But like it or not that is simply what the Christian religion teaches.. not that women are inferior, but that men should govern the household. I'll cite some scriptures that explain my point later, and I'll also give a stab at 1 Timothy. I'll cite transliteration sources as well.

By the way this is good practice as I'm a pretty enthusiastic history student

Kamikazi Kat · 03-22-2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

Last time I checked the Bible in no place justifies a democratic approach to governing a family as your first paragraph suggests. Either way you're still saying that, from a Biblical perspective, a woman should subvert her own will to that of the male. Why? What justification is there for the man to be the head of the household over the woman? That's inequality, there's no reason a woman can't be the head of the household or that they can't, shock-shock, govern it as equal authority figures. You didn't even counter that inherent sexism in that biblical logic you only softened up it up.

I'd also like you to explain 1 Timothy 2:9-15, which teaches that woman should never be allowed to teach, must learn in complete silence and are never superior to men under any circumstances.

I agree with this. This happens with my mom alot too. If I express any dislike toward the bible or christianity, she will soften it up and end with this whole "that shouldn't stop you from being a christain" or "its not that bad" She still thinks I'm a christain, but that may because I've never told her. I don't want to upset her. I often get stuff from her like "well its not like that at our church! Sure they want you to do this or this but that isn't going to stop you from playing your violent video games or whatever it is you like to do." Another example is when I was talking to somebody at my school on the topic of homosexuality and religion and he has this whole "Oh we allow homosexuals at the church, we just encourage that they not be homosexual," acting like that puts the arguement to rest or something.

davidMC1982 · 03-22-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonace

Let me do some more research, give me a day or two. But like it or not that is simply what the Christian religion teaches.. not that women are inferior, but that men should govern the household. I'll cite some scriptures that explain my point later, and I'll also give a stab at 1 Timothy. I'll cite transliteration sources as well.

By the way this is good practice as I'm a pretty enthusiastic history student

Take some time to question the logic of your own post since it most certainly does state that women are inferior. Would you still support your own statement if it read as such:

"But like it or not that is simply what the Christian religion teaches.. not that black people are inferior, but that white men should govern the nation."

How does that stand with your notion of equality?

Dave

~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ · 03-23-2009, 10:26 AM

I am not answering questions of why... I am just putting some of these quotes into the correct context, i dont support or reject it.. I am just telling you what I learn, and that things translated to English (archaic english at that) from Aramaic, Greek and Judistic Hebrew often come across differently than the original meaning. I'm just a student who enjoys studying ancient texts.

But yeah, just let me dig through my notes as I believe my instructor adressed this topic directly.

jibber · 03-25-2009, 08:50 PM

I think it's time that people stop equating "tolerance" with accepting violations of human rights on the grounds of tradition. Like sleepyjack said, the Qur'an has many, MANY passages that very clearly justify beating women, forcing them to submission, and generally treating them as inferior beings to men. Christianity has some dubious passages too, but the difference is that for the most part, most predominantly Christian nations have stopped using the Bible to justify violations of human rights.

The major issue is that these barbaric passages are still being followed to the letter in most of the middle east and fundamentalist islamic states. Religious leaders use the Qur'an as a way to justify all sorts of violent and inexcusable practices. Yes a practice can have been performed for hundreds of years, but that still doesn't make it right. Just because it's a tradition does not mean that it is not a violation of someone's rights, and simply because it is written in a holy book is no reason why people shouldn't express their outrage with it.

Yukon Cornelius · 03-26-2009, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibber

I think it's time that people stop equating "tolerance" with accepting violations of human rights on the grounds of tradition. Like sleepyjack said, the Qur'an has many, MANY passages that very clearly justify beating women, forcing them to submission, and generally treating them as inferior beings to men. Christianity has some dubious passages too, but the difference is that for the most part, most predominantly Christian nations have stopped using the Bible to justify violations of human rights.

The major issue is that these barbaric passages are still being followed to the letter in most of the middle east and fundamentalist islamic states. Religious leaders use the Qur'an as a way to justify all sorts of violent and inexcusable practices. Yes a practice can have been performed for hundreds of years, but that still doesn't make it right. Just because it's a tradition does not mean that it is not a violation of someone's rights, and simply because it is written in a holy book is no reason why people shouldn't express their outrage with it.

So Jibber as you see it, they should bypass it and make exceptions and go against their faith? Do you feel that this women was aware of the wrong she was doing? I Do.

I understand they are using there religion to base punishment, I see this as something you and I have yet to agree on... Brainwashing. Religion hmmm lets see do right or go to hell. Oh and we will give you chances to get it right by changing your ways and asking for forgivness... Just another way to keep you controlled. Or maybe your soul will really float up to heaven. Mine will be eaten by worms...

But after all what do you have to loose right?

henry · 04-02-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan

I think you're missing the point...People will always find an excuse to be cruel and to discriminate, religion isn't the problem.

Of course religion is the problem. Religion founded the sets of beliefs and attitudes that you yourself live by every day. Sure you might not be religious but thats besides the point - religion was everything back in the day.

You cannot blame them for giving the woman 40 lashes, scenarios like this have to be examined delicately because we have to be understand of their religion. I myself think it is bull**** and that the Middle East need to stop living in the past and start to treat people more fairly, but that is how their society is and how it was shaped from their beliefs. They probably think we live in a funny society as well - where teenage gang members kill other teenagers and get away with it - where girls as young as 12 get pregnant - or how drugs are rampant everywhere.

A lot of factors go into these types of situations - you cannot just say that they are violent people and all they want to do is cause harm to people. You need to view the big picture - but more important you have to respect their culture and religion and the norms that they live by.

03-25-2009, 08:50 PM	#58 (permalink)
jibber Freeskier Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Istanbul was Constantinople now it's Istanbul not Constantinople... Posts: 1,536	I think it's time that people stop equating "tolerance" with accepting violations of human rights on the grounds of tradition. Like sleepyjack said, the Qur'an has many, MANY passages that very clearly justify beating women, forcing them to submission, and generally treating them as inferior beings to men. Christianity has some dubious passages too, but the difference is that for the most part, most predominantly Christian nations have stopped using the Bible to justify violations of human rights. The major issue is that these barbaric passages are still being followed to the letter in most of the middle east and fundamentalist islamic states. Religious leaders use the Qur'an as a way to justify all sorts of violent and inexcusable practices. Yes a practice can have been performed for hundreds of years, but that still doesn't make it right. Just because it's a tradition does not mean that it is not a violation of someone's rights, and simply because it is written in a holy book is no reason why people shouldn't express their outrage with it. __________________ What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road. William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass. HOOKED ON THE WHITE POWDER

03-20-2009, 04:52 PM	#51 (permalink)
ProggyMan Reformed Jackass Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,964	Way to not answer the point.

03-21-2009, 09:24 PM	#54 (permalink)
~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,538	Let me do some more research, give me a day or two. But like it or not that is simply what the Christian religion teaches.. not that women are inferior, but that men should govern the household. I'll cite some scriptures that explain my point later, and I'll also give a stab at 1 Timothy. I'll cite transliteration sources as well. By the way this is good practice as I'm a pretty enthusiastic history student

03-23-2009, 10:26 AM	#57 (permalink)
~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,538	I am not answering questions of why... I am just putting some of these quotes into the correct context, i dont support or reject it.. I am just telling you what I learn, and that things translated to English (archaic english at that) from Aramaic, Greek and Judistic Hebrew often come across differently than the original meaning. I'm just a student who enjoys studying ancient texts. But yeah, just let me dig through my notes as I believe my instructor adressed this topic directly.