ProggyMan

Okay, fair enough, there's no way to prove my statement.

someonecompletelyrandom

Ugh, can we stop with the religion BS? I mean seriously that is the most tired catch-all for the world's problems. The ancient texts most mainstream religions are based on bear almost no resemblence to how they are practiced today. It's just ancient attitudes preserved under the guise (sorry for the grammer) of religious customs.

Take for example Christmas and Easter. Two "Christian" holidays that have absolutely no significance in the Bible. No where is the Christ's birth date mentioned, nor are the followers of Christ told to celebrate the ressurrection. It's just ancient celebrations made new.

Likewise, much of the attitudes we see in the middle east are not encouraged in the Qur'an.

GuitarBizarre

Religion exists to explain away the mysteries of the universe in a manner that is easily accepted and impossible to completely disprove.

The moral codes that religion bases itself around are born from the tribe leaders and shamans of ancient times, who used both their own power and the fear of an omnipotent being to control the masses, with the promised reward being something that they themselves would never have to be held accountable for. Its the perfect way to control someone based on their own guilt and fear.

Because of this need for control, the moral codes set out by any religion originally used for such purpose, or descended from such religions, are based around what is needed to create a prosperous society. Murder reduces the population and creates unrest, so it is outlawed. homosexuality increases the risk of diseases and lowers the birth rate, so it is outlawed. Every major religion has something in its texts that refers to converting or killing unbelievers and heretics. This is to consolidate power by removing any competitive threats. Women are subjugated by religion because until very recently, almost every culture in the world, if not quite all of them, has relied on physical strength that women have not posessed, and education that women were not allowed. Women are deemed unfit for a large number of activities by religion because as the mothers and physically weaker sex, it was important to protect them from harm and not the other way around.


ANY moral tenet within ANY religion can be explained as somehow beneficial to the society which created it. As the ages move on, we see less sacrifice within religion, because intelligence and education have become more sophisticated and more widespread, resulting in a decreased general bloodlust within the population. Death was no longer needed to sate the masses and sports and hunting sufficed for those remaining who did need combat or bloodshed to function as a normal societal member.


Religion is NOT some kind of lovey dovey aren't we all happy loving people bred with compassion in our hearts that needs to be nurtured kind of deal. It is purely and solely a tool for the advancement of those who have the power to rewrite the rules as they see fit, and its only concession to the general good of mankind is that generally those in power have realized the best way to consolidate their power is to convince the general populace that their toil to support the government is not only for the greater good but also for their own personal good in an afterlife that may or may not exist.

Religion is NOT what dictates the way we percieve the moral good of 'helping' someone. People would help each other if religion didn't exist. Not because we naturally want to, but because some leader somewhere would have found a way other than religion to convince us as such, for the EXACT reasons listed above.




Edit: As for who I look to to solve my problems, I don't. Its exactly that kind of pathetic needy thinking that a lot of atheists are trying to avoid. That ridiculous reliance on something or someone to assuage all your own guilt and solve all your problems. The fear to face what is actually there no matter how bad it is. The fear that we don't matter. The fear that we'll end. The fear that we can be judged by anyone other than ourselves. None of this **** matters to me from a theological standpoint.

I exist. I think what I like, and there is no-one and nothing that is watching me from above or anywhere else to condemn my actions, apart from other human beings, very few of which will ever actually matter.


Double Edit:

Also, to take your example of 'helping' in a religious context as being common to all religion, the exact same thing is said in all major religions, about killing or converting the unbelievers. The only difference is the form, whether it be enlightening them to the one true path, or burning all ye unfaithful.




----------------
Now playing on Winamp: Porcupine Tree - Untitled Instrumental
via FoxyTunes

__________________

sleepy jack

Have you even read the Qu'ran? Or just...read something on the sexism in it? It teaches that woman are inferior, should subvert themselves to the will of man, deserve to be beaten for being "lewd," etc. I would agree though, sexist attitudes aren't encourage in the Qu'ran; they're openly stated.

"Men have a status above women." - 2:228

"As for those women whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in bed, and beat them." - 4:34

"O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving". - 4:43

"Mothers shall suck their children for two whole years if the father wishes the sucking to be complete."- 2:233

"Lo! it is those who disbelieve in the Hereafter who name the angels with the names of females." - 53:27

"As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify then confine them to the houses until death take them" - 4:15

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment." - 24:31

"Women are your fields: go, then into your fields whence you please." - 2:223

__________________

someonecompletelyrandom

I must apologize. Coming from a Christian that sounded pretty ignorant. I hold by the Bible thing though (as I have read it and studied not only the poetic aspects but also the chronology and the laws). I've just read some pretty ignorant posts about the bible, guess replying with an equally ignorant statement doesn't help.

7gaugejames

"Lets just be nice to eachother and help eachother out." It's a nice sentiment, but wholly un-reallistic.
I've seen men who don't care. I've seen what they're capable of. I know people who have anger inside them only. Fact is they're not the people on line posting every day, people who can control themselves, and act within a set of rules, are. My point was, Authority. There is always authority, unless you are in charge, absolute power. We know what that brings. It all boils down to authority and how you want to deal with it. God, Christ, and even the ( best Ricky Bobby voice)sweet dear little blessed Baby Jesus help me out with it. It's my way. I wont deny it.

__________________
I don't care who you are, Gunslinger, shmunslinger, everyone needs a good purse.

lucifer_sam

"Intellectual damage"? The first universities were seminaries! The Church has been steeped in the education of people; the first professors, scientists, lawyers and doctors were all clergy. There is nothing inherently wrong with religion. Where religion fails is when people misinterpret the intention of authors of holy books.

__________________
first.am

GuitarBizarre

Ok, I have to know. What is it about you freaky religious nutjobs, that makes you think its an acceptable debating tactic to COMPLETELY ignore over a page of reasoned debate, with the cop-out answer of 'well these are MY beliefs anyway you don't have to believe them'


Or something along those lines. Theres a whole post up there addressing YOU, DIRECTLY, and asking you questions based on a debate you have been actively participating in until now. If you feel so strongly about your beliefs, and feel justified in doing what you did by advising others about them, then I am just as able to ask you to back them up and debate with me, yet why do you refuse to do so?
----------------
Now playing on Winamp: Porcupine Tree - Arriving Somewhere But Not Here
via FoxyTunes

__________________

Inuzuka Skysword

Just an example:

Look at the Gospels and tell me where Jesus advocated inequality between women and men. Christians follow Christ, I would think that was common sense.

Kamikazi Kat

What would of stopped these advancements in education if religion didn't exist? Sure, the first universities may have been seminaries, but that doesn't mean the idea of educating the people should be attributed to religion.

Religion fails with the continuation of old, out-dated values and rules and with the lack of these old and out-dated values not being openly questioned by the religious community. The idea of believing in a god, that you must be a good person to go to heaven, that general concept, isn't bad. The problem with religion is it isn't just about "I'm going to try and be a good person so I can get into heaven" it turns into this "The church says I have to do this/be like this/act like this/think like this so I can get into the heaven." For the most part, religion isn't something on a personal level, it is on a highly organized level that leads to dangerous things.