Music Banter

Go Back   Music Banter > Community Center > The Lounge > Current Events, Philosophy, & Religion
Register Blogging Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Welcome to Music Banter Forum! Make sure to register - it's free and very quick! You have to register before you can post and participate in our discussions with over 70,000 other registered members. After you create your free account, you will be able to customize many options, you will have the full access to over 1,100,000 posts.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-13-2009, 06:21 AM   #281 (permalink)
Crazyyyyyy Train
 
Celladorina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,832
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SATCHMO View Post
There's an entire library worth of relevant material from the old-new testament era that gets shunned or overlooked : The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Nag Hammadi, The Apocraphya (the missing books of the bible) the list goes on.
Are they available though?
Celladorina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2009, 07:52 AM   #282 (permalink)
Music Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Africa
Posts: 51
Default

God is utterly unfathomable, beyond human systems of order, cognition and reason: the infinite transcends the finite. However, this understanding fails to take account of the "becoming space of time" and the "becoming time of space", which does not allow for any form of pure transcendence, outside human history, time, the universe. God is a human construct, and therefore subject to human systems of order and reason. What the idea of infinity in terms of space time means is that the only constant is change, that change "comes" or "happens" despite human attempts to control it, and thus exceeds the human. Space/time is truly infinite since it is not only the IDEA of a perfect, transcendent god beyond time, history and cognition. Space/time is infinite and not the idea of god, which is in fact bounded by a concept and is thus finite.
__________________
One morning, upon awakening from agitated dreams, Gregor Samsa found himself, in his bed, transformed into a monstrous vermin.
Neil Loots is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2009, 12:32 PM   #283 (permalink)
Mate, Spawn & Die
 
Janszoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Loots View Post
God is utterly unfathomable, beyond human systems of order, cognition and reason: the infinite transcends the finite. However, this understanding fails to take account of the "becoming space of time" and the "becoming time of space", which does not allow for any form of pure transcendence, outside human history, time, the universe. God is a human construct, and therefore subject to human systems of order and reason. What the idea of infinity in terms of space time means is that the only constant is change, that change "comes" or "happens" despite human attempts to control it, and thus exceeds the human. Space/time is truly infinite since it is not only the IDEA of a perfect, transcendent god beyond time, history and cognition. Space/time is infinite and not the idea of god, which is in fact bounded by a concept and is thus finite.
You and Cardboard Adolescent are going to get along well. I can tell already.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by P A N View Post
i'm not gonna spend my life on music banter trying to convince people the earth is flat.
A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die


last.fm
Janszoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2009, 12:41 PM   #284 (permalink)
;)
 
cardboard adolescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 3,502
Default

i don't know how comfortable i am equating the dialectic with god, the copulation of space and time may be infinite and necessary for experience, akin on another level to the copulation of zero and infinity. but this copulation does not necessarily transcend our finite human systems, since like Hegel we can construct dialectical systems which take into account recursion and self-reference. hence a truly transcendent God would go beyond space, time, zero and infinity, into a state of pure unity and oneness, a collapse of the dialectic, the absolute Void. see you there.
cardboard adolescent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2009, 04:18 PM   #285 (permalink)
Music Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Africa
Posts: 51
Default

The idea of perfect unity or oneness, in Hegelian terms a final Aufhebung which would ultimately signify the end of the dialectical negation of "the other" and the "resurrection" of the self, and which would thus signify the culmination of history in oneness (another word for which is perfect sameness and non-difference), is indeed analogous the idea of the perfect oneness of god. I tend to think of the famous John Lennon song, impossible to imagine because of the infinity of radical, "non-dialectizable" culturally inscribed difference, i.e. history. The radical, time/space infinity of the discursive other/Other "within" history radically exceeds and evades the self's attempts to conceive and thus control it. The end of history in perfection - and here an absolute presence and an absolute absence seem to be two names for the same thing - is precisely impossible because of the becoming time of space and the becoming space of time - the infinite - a point which Hegel fails to take into account in his chronometric conception of history. Of course, there is no end to infinity, therefore God cannot be a perfect whole. God can cetainly not be both infinite, in the sense of transcending, overflowing or radically exceeding any attempts to subsume and thus reduce "him" and "his" radical transcendence under a bounded concept, AND the concept of a perfect bounded whole somehow thoroughly beyond (i.e. transcending) human thought (cognition, conception), i.e. a perfect concept for which there can be no concept because it is perfect and thus not bound to linguistic conceptuality, but which is still thought from "within" (I use this word with caution, for me there is no inside-outside, only infinity) the "realm" of linguistic conceptuality - "mathematical" word-concepts like "perfect," "unity"and "whole" - as a word-concept of the perfect. The absolute void or perfect overcoming of language (indeed "everything") cannot be thought from within language, which relies on an infinite and arbitrary system of word-concept differences for the generation of its meaning ("full" is "full" because it not "half full" or "empty", "absence" is only abscence because it is not "presence", "a cat" is "a cat" because it is not "a dog", nor "a parakeet", nor "a rat", nor "a baby grand piano," nor "Mobuto Sese Seko," nor "god"). "Void" and "perfection" are word-concepts, tied to the "non-appropriable" infinity of the human apprehension of language, culture, history, etc., and thus do not point to something somehow beyond linguistic conceptuality.
__________________
One morning, upon awakening from agitated dreams, Gregor Samsa found himself, in his bed, transformed into a monstrous vermin.

Last edited by Neil Loots; 04-13-2009 at 05:30 PM. Reason: correction
Neil Loots is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2009, 05:54 PM   #286 (permalink)
;)
 
cardboard adolescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 3,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Loots View Post
Of course, there is no end to infinity, therefore God cannot be a perfect whole. God can cetainly not be both infinite, in the sense of transcending, overflowing or radically exceeding any attempts to subsume and thus reduce "him" and "his" radical transcendence under a bounded concept, AND the concept of a perfect bounded whole somehow thoroughly beyond (i.e. transcending) human thought (cognition, conception), i.e. a perfect concept for which there can be no concept because it is perfect and thus not bound to linguistic conceptuality, but which is still thought from "within" (I use this word with caution, for me there is no inside-outside, only infinity) the "realm" of linguistic conceptuality - "mathematical" word-concepts like "perfect," "unity"and "whole" - as a word-concept of the perfect. The absolute void or perfect overcoming of language (indeed "everything") cannot be thought from within language, which relies on an infinite and arbitrary system of word-concept differences for the generation of its meaning ("full" is "full" because it not "half full" or "empty", "absence" is only abscence because it is not "presence", "a cat" is "a cat" because it is not "a dog", nor "a parakeet", nor "a rat", nor "a baby grand piano," nor "Mobuto Sese Seko," nor "god"). "Void" and "perfection" are word-concepts, tied to the "non-appropriable" infinity of the human apprehension of language, culture, history, etc., and thus do not point to something somehow beyond linguistic conceptuality.
i agree that "the tao that can be spoken is not the tao," but I don't think there isn't any way out of the system. the system must rely on something outside itself. transcendence won't take place inside the system but in fact occurs when the infinity of the system--of space/time, self/other, matter/energy whatever you want--is revealed to be a hollow content-less circle... which must rely on some force outside it for sustenance.
cardboard adolescent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2009, 10:18 PM   #287 (permalink)
****ER OF HOLES
 
Terrible Lizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Butt****, Nebraska
Posts: 1,215
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent View Post
i agree that "the tao that can be spoken is not the tao," but I don't think there isn't any way out of the system. the system must rely on something outside itself. transcendence won't take place inside the system but in fact occurs when the infinity of the system--of space/time, self/other, matter/energy whatever you want--is revealed to be a hollow content-less circle... which must rely on some force outside it for sustenance.
Perhaps some time the perspective of other forms of physical comprehension will become applicable.
__________________
“YOU ARE SCUM SLUT.”
-John Martyn
Terrible Lizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 12:22 AM   #288 (permalink)
Unrepentant Ass-Mod
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,920
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent View Post
i agree that "the tao that can be spoken is not the tao," but I don't think there isn't any way out of the system. the system must rely on something outside itself. transcendence won't take place inside the system but in fact occurs when the infinity of the system--of space/time, self/other, matter/energy whatever you want--is revealed to be a hollow content-less circle... which must rely on some force outside it for sustenance.
the implication that transcendence occurs within the confines of space and time ignores the larger unity of multiple dimensions for which there is no qualification. so while it may be that a transcendent being is not "of" the system ("the universe"), the broader "existence" is a term which cannot be quantified by measures of human knowledge, because it does not take into account the uncertainty of the system. in an infinitely-dimensioned universe (thus "dimensionless") there can be no qualification which can be ascribed to a "physical" being (physicality in this instance the proof of existence).

in essence the transcendence of a being is no more than a function of the uncertainty of the dimensions of a system. in a dimensionless system this manifests itself into nonbeing.
__________________
first.am
lucifer_sam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 01:12 AM   #289 (permalink)
Al Dente
 
SATCHMO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,689
Default

Oh man, you guys are dropping some philosophical rhetoric that's making my head spin!

God to me is a three letter word that I use as a matter of semantic convenience more than anything else. I talk about god a lot in my daily life and when I do I'm referring to the influences and experiences in my life that transcend the realm of egoic consciousness. People (at least non-atheists/agnostics) tend to relate to and understand the term "god" more readily than "The Quantum Field of Infinite Potential" or "The Void" or "The Superego". By strict definition I am an atheist, because I do not believe in an autonomous anthropomorphic entity with a will that is completely independent of our own intentions, conscious or unconscious.
However despite this belief, or lack thereof, I choose to interact with god (again semantics) as if "he" did exist. Because I believe that relating to "god" in this way adds dimension and fullness to my life. The pursuit of a relationship with the aspect of consciousness that is indeed transcendent can be a very healthy thing if it is perceived and practiced with the right attitude and understanding, but I will be the first to agree that organized religion is counter-intuitive and, more often than not, undermines the process in most individuals.
The point being is that I don't think its relevant whether or not God exists. In the case of trying to prove or disprove God's existence I agree with Cardboard Adolescents and Lao Tzu and say "The tao that can be spoken is not the tao" and leave any further pursuit to those who feel it important to contemplate further.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord
And if you're getting bored then feel free to go give Eddie Vedder a handjob.
SATCHMO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 09:16 AM   #290 (permalink)
Craziest Thing
 
pahuuuta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 459
Default

god and the bible are just rules to live by and how you should live in life and what to do and not to do, nothing less nothing more
__________________
He Who Makes A Beast Out Of Himself Gets Rid Of The Pain Of Being A Man
pahuuuta is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



© 2003-2019 Advameg, Inc.

SEO by vBSEO 3.5.2 ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.