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-   -   How Real Is Christianity? (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/39067-how-real-christianity.html)

midnight rain 04-10-2009 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy jack (Post 634815)
That isn't free will though. Free will is the ability to make your decisions and dictate your own future. If all your choices are already known it's already been determined and ceases to be free will but rather a contrived plan.
Yeah, but what is free will exactly? I mean, you can tell yourself "I'm going to make this choice instead to alternate my destiny" but destiny already knows that your setting yourself up to alternate your destiny and thus that's all part of your destiny. It's really quite a confusing topic. :banghead:

sleepy jack 04-10-2009 02:27 PM
Free will is, as I said, "the ability to make your decisions and dictate your own future [with those decisions]" if it's all predetermined then guess what? You're not dictating your own future you're adhering to the plan of your life.

midnight rain 04-10-2009 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy jack (Post 634823)
Free will is, as I said, "the ability to make your decisions and dictate your own future [with those decisions]" if it's all predetermined then guess what? You're not dictating your own future you're adhering to the plan of your life.
Yeah, but it really doesn't matter because we'll never actually know if we have free will or not, it's far beyond our capabilities to grasp the concept. To us, it'll always be that we control our lives and that's really all that matters.

djchameleon 04-10-2009 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy jack (Post 634823)
Free will is, as I said, "the ability to make your decisions and dictate your own future [with those decisions]" if it's all predetermined then guess what? You're not dictating your own future you're adhering to the plan of your life.
it's only pre-determined if you are a believer though

sleepy jack 04-10-2009 02:40 PM
Read the Bible or at least familiarize yourself with some basic theological tenets before making claims about it. If you're a believer then you have a specific lifestyle/path to follow as for everyone (including the entire human race) he knows all their thoughts, choices (future and past) and everything about them; a horrifying thought.

midnight rain 04-10-2009 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy jack (Post 634835)
Read the Bible or at least familiarize yourself with some basic theological tenets before making claims about it. If you're a believer then you have a specific lifestyle/path to follow as for everyone (including the entire human race) he knows all their thoughts, choices (future and past) and everything about them; a horrifying thought.
Things I can't do anything about I try not to

Everyone has a specific path to follow to keep them in line, the law for instance?

sleepy jack 04-10-2009 02:45 PM
There's a difference between secular laws that are in place to keep domestic tranquility and following the teachings of a religion. I don't really know what you're driving at with that.

djchameleon 04-10-2009 02:46 PM
i did that once....tried to read it from beginning to end...I only made it through the old testament and part of the new testament....I was raised christian.....so I know what I'm talking about.

I know exactly what you are talking about in your last post and you are right about that but I just never felt that way about it. I always felt/believed that I had my own free will based about a verse that I read in the old testament and I held onto it for dear life no matter what my pastor was trying to say. I was bring forced to go to church on sundays so maybe that's why I'm not as religious anymore but I'm still spiritual. I believe there is a God but a majority of the things in the bible I don't believe in.

midnight rain 04-10-2009 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy jack (Post 634844)
There's a difference between secular laws that are in place to keep domestic tranquility and following the teachings of a religion. I don't really know what you're driving at with that.
No I just fail to see your point. So because he knows what we've done in life, we have no free will?

sleepy jack 04-10-2009 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzz (Post 634848)
No I just fail to see your point. So because he knows what we've done in life, we have no free will?
And what were going to do (which I clearly stated in my post.) Predetermination and free will can't coexist.

Whatsitoosit 04-10-2009 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 634740)
why would you take what I said as an insult? the person's creator gave them free will to believe in their God or not. To choose whether they want to follow his teachings or not. what's so wrong about that?
"blind ignorance" was the insult I was referring to. With the analogy I gave before, to just ignore the obvious is to disregard one of our most important human characteristics... "reason". Every time I see verses quoted from the bible the first thing I think of is some power hungry guy in a robe trying to figure out ways of controlling the people around him. Today we call that "the government" and we don't need books to get the message across... today we have the "media". So many aspects of the bible don't coincide with the world we live in today... if it were truly the word of God, wouldn't it be timeless? The parables are good for teaching values and morals for anyone looking to be enlightened by them but so much of the superstitious/spooky wording almost reads like ghost stories.

I know, I'm going to hell... and you're all coming with me :tramp:

djchameleon 04-10-2009 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsitoosit (Post 634850)
"blind ignorance" was the insult I was referring to. With the analogy I gave before, to just ignore the obvious is to disregard one of our most important human characteristics... "reason". Every time I see verses quoted from the bible the first thing I think of is some power hungry guy in a robe trying to figure out ways of controlling the people around him. Today we call that "the government" and we don't need books to get the message across... today we have the "media". So many aspects of the bible don't coincide with the world we live in today... if it were truly the word of God, wouldn't it be timeless? The parables are good for teaching values and morals for anyone looking to be enlightened by them but so much of the superstitious/spooky wording almost reads like ghost stories which makes a lot of sense considering they couldn't tune into Jerry Springer back then :)

I know, I'm going to hell... and your all coming with me :tramp:
Oh okay I understand what you are saying now.

Yeah my reasoning for not agreeing with the Bible is that I believe the people that translated it from the scrolls to the current version we have today....didn't translate everything properly. They had the power to add/omit whatever they wanted.

All of the verses in the bible are open to interpretation also. Ten people can read the same verse and get ten different opinions of what the verse meant to them, that is why I hate when people try to quote verses to me.

Also another thing is that like you said, some of the practices in the bible are outdated and people don't really interpret it in a way that connects with today's day and age.

sleepy jack 04-10-2009 02:55 PM
They forgot the disclaimer stating it was a work of fiction.

djchameleon 04-10-2009 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfarer (Post 634858)
why?
The reason I think that is because there is a possibility that error could have taken place don't you think?

Just like how they left out books that were supposed to be in the old testament and we just found out about them recently.

djchameleon 04-10-2009 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfarer (Post 634881)
there's also a possibility that there exists a gargantuan spectral octopus with wings that follows you around every day and plants invisible seeds of cancer up the arses of your family members whenever the opportunity arises. doesn't rly mean there's any reason to believe it.
oh wow....that's a horrible example especially for someone that's in your position of this debate

of course there is a possibility that the creature exists but since I don't believe it exists and there is no scientific evidence of my family members having cancer......then I don't believe it and it doesn't exist.

sleepy jack 04-10-2009 03:45 PM
They're invisible seeds of cancer of course there's no evidence for them in your family members.

djchameleon 04-10-2009 03:47 PM
invisible seeds can be detected with the proper tests though

sleepy jack 04-10-2009 03:48 PM
No they can't they're magical seeds planted by an all powerful being. It's impossible for science to disprove their existence.

djchameleon 04-10-2009 04:10 PM
well I don't believe in said seeds but I choose not to believe in that silly powerful being

sleepy jack 04-10-2009 04:16 PM
Why don't you believe in it?

djchameleon 04-10-2009 05:03 PM
I don't believe for the same reason you do believe

sleepy jack 04-10-2009 05:10 PM
You don't believe because of a lack of faith? I have faith in the octopus - why isn't that good enough to justify its existence?

ElephantSack 04-10-2009 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfarer (Post 634407)
more importantly, would it really even be all that heavenly if it were full of those whom are certain they're going there?
My sentiments exactly. If I had the choice of hanging out with a bunch of middle-aged, fat ass American Baptists for the rest of eternity or staying here and rotting in the ****in' ground, I think I'd take the latter.

Filotrillian 04-11-2009 12:37 AM
Hi guys. I wish to promote the monotheist religion of the Holy Sanctuary of Swimming Staplers. HSST. It is known that everyone has undetectable staples within themselves that cause disease. These staples are undetectable by any human or mortal means.

Janszoon 04-11-2009 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filotrillian (Post 635175)
Hi guys. I wish to promote the monotheist religion of the Holy Sanctuary of Swimming Staplers. HSST. It is known that everyone has undetectable staples within themselves that cause disease. These staples are undetectable by any human or mortal means.
Can I be a deacon in your church?

Filotrillian 04-11-2009 12:43 AM
Sleepyjack and Djchameleon, why do you believe in such random things? Things that are merely constructed by the Holy Stapler to amuse itself.

Yes Janszoon, you may become a Prophet of the Holy Sanctuary.

We serve only in the name of The Almighty and Eternally Holy Stapler.

Filotrillian 04-11-2009 12:47 AM
He Who Governs All is Righteous in his constituents.

The Omniscient Stapler of Holyness has oversight over the proceedings of this thread and this forum.

May we please it's Holy Righteousness.

Filotrillian 04-11-2009 12:52 AM
I am acting merely on the Most Benevolent Proceedings of the Holy Might of the Great Stapler.

Filotrillian 04-11-2009 01:06 AM
The Holy Stapler has forgiven this one trespass upon the 69 Sanctums of Behavior.
May the Great Stapler have mercy on your Staple.

Janszoon 04-11-2009 01:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfarer (Post 635207)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/198/4...a2b731e35f.jpg

yeah, i went there. a cartoon of your God.
You will have your staple torn asunder and cast into the fiery trash can for this heresy! The avenging angel cometh:

http://store2shop-lb.com/images/stap...ver%5B1%5D.jpg

Filotrillian 04-11-2009 01:55 AM
See the Fiery Claw of the Avenger.

NobleBeast 04-11-2009 08:13 PM
Real enough for me to sell out to it.

SugarRush 04-11-2009 09:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleBeast (Post 635593)
Real enough for me to sell out to it.
But why did you sell out it to it? What made accept it so willingly?

And to answer a question previously posed about proving the non-existence of god.

Is it not a common belief that if God exists, then he is transcendent, meaning he is outside space and time? And if God does indeed exists, he is omnipresent? But, to be transcendent, a being cannot exist anywhere in space. Yet, to be omnipresent, a being must exist everywhere in space. Is that is contradiction and therefore a physical impossibility, unless one defies logic. So if this so called God cannot be defined with out being physically possible, how can he possibly exist?

SATCHMO 04-11-2009 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SugarRush (Post 635618)
But why did you sell out it to it? What made accept it so willingly?

And to answer a question previously posed about proving the non-existence of god.

Is it not a common belief that if God exists, then he is transcendent, meaning he is outside space and time? And if God does indeed exists, he is omnipresent? But, to be transcendent, a being cannot exist anywhere in space. Yet, to be omnipresent, a being must exist everywhere in space. Is that is contradiction and therefore a physical impossibility, unless one defies logic. So if this so called God cannot be defined with out being physically possible, how can he possibly exist?
Space and time are human concepts that are essentially measurements of each other. They are,in effect, illusory. To say that God is transcendent of time and space is to say that "he" is beyond the limitations of time and space, thus omnipresent.

Cheese 04-11-2009 09:41 PM
Of all the people I know christians are the most hypocritical of all.

Trying to force 2000 year old fairytales on people who know better....**** them!

SATCHMO 04-11-2009 09:46 PM
**** em'.

djchameleon 04-12-2009 01:26 PM
there was a documentary on the History channel called Banned from the Bible and they were discussing the stories/books that were conveniently omitted from the Bible

I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that the Bible was altered severely from it's original version through "lost in translation" and of course to suit the agenda of the Catholic church that had a major hand in translating the version of the Bible that we use today.

There are books that are missing between the old testament and new testament that some denominations refuse to recognize.

Blue 04-12-2009 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 635979)
there was a documentary on the History channel called Banned from the Bible and they were discussing the stories/books that were conveniently omitted from the Bible

I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that the Bible was altered severely from it's original version through "lost in translation" and of course to suit the agenda of the Catholic church that had a major hand in translating the version of the Bible that we use today.

There are books that are missing between the old testament and new testament that some denominations refuse to recognize.
I actually didn't know that. That's very interesting.

Scarlett O'Hara 04-12-2009 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 635979)
there was a documentary on the History channel called Banned from the Bible and they were discussing the stories/books that were conveniently omitted from the Bible

I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that the Bible was altered severely from it's original version through "lost in translation" and of course to suit the agenda of the Catholic church that had a major hand in translating the version of the Bible that we use today.

There are books that are missing between the old testament and new testament that some denominations refuse to recognize.
I'd certainly be interested in reading them. I think some of them actually show women had an actual role in the time of Jesus. I definitely do not agree with 90% of what the church says and has done. I try to distance myself from it all as it is all rather subjective, and have my own personal spiritual connection with God.

SATCHMO 04-13-2009 02:56 AM
There's an entire library worth of relevant material from the old-new testament era that gets shunned or overlooked : The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Nag Hammadi, The Apocraphya (the missing books of the bible) the list goes on.


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