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Old 04-16-2015, 01:46 PM   #511 (permalink)
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so what do you do with a family of people who can't afford to eat?
**** if I care. I was just asking Briks. And Josef apparently.
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Old 04-16-2015, 01:54 PM   #512 (permalink)
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**** if I care. I was just asking Briks. And Josef apparently.
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Old 04-16-2015, 02:17 PM   #513 (permalink)
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Why? You worked for it.
That's an extremely narrow perspective.

All the money you earn already comes from society - just like you do, your family and friends, the economy where your money comes from, the possibilities that let you have a job where you actually have an income. Yes, you worked for it, but you weren't the only one. Other people have contributed to creating that world in which that paycheck exists - your family, your teachers, your co-workers, the guy who drives your buss to work. If their lives become a little more crappy, yours probably will too.

You can detach yourself from society if you like - go live alone on an island or in a forest somewhere - and then see how much your money's worth. Which is probably not much more than as kindling for a fire.
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Old 04-16-2015, 02:32 PM   #514 (permalink)
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That's an extremely narrow perspective.

All the money you earn already comes from society - just like you do, your family and friends, the economy where your money comes from, the possibilities that let you have a job where you actually have an income. Yes, you worked for it, but you weren't the only one. Other people have contributed to creating that world in which that paycheck exists - your family, your teachers, your co-workers, the guy who drives your buss to work. If their lives become a little more crappy, yours probably will too.

You can detach yourself from society if you like - go live alone on an island or in a forest somewhere - and then see how much your money's worth. Which is probably not much more than as kindling for a fire.
So money never belongs to the person who "worked for it"? It's entirely communal? What about property? Where does ownership come into play?
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Old 04-16-2015, 02:35 PM   #515 (permalink)
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**** if I care. I was just asking Briks. And Josef apparently.
i'm just saying if we're going to go around moralizing the knife cuts both ways

"is it right to take someone's money and give it to someone else?"
no

"is it right to watch people starve while you have money and do nothing about it?"
no

people do tons of **** that isn't "right"

it's not about what's right, it's about what works

the real question to me is does society benefit from providing a social safety net
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Old 04-16-2015, 02:38 PM   #516 (permalink)
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the real question to me is does society benefit from providing a social safety net
Yes.
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Old 04-16-2015, 02:40 PM   #517 (permalink)
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in what way?
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Old 04-16-2015, 02:46 PM   #518 (permalink)
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in what way?
This

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Safety net programs can play four roles in development policy:

Safety nets redistribute income to the poorest and most vulnerable, with an immediate impact on poverty and inequality
Safety nets enable households to make productive investments in their future that they may otherwise miss, e.g. education, health, income generating opportunities
Safety nets help households manage risk, at least offsetting harmful coping strategies and at most providing an insurance function which improves livelihood options
Safety nets allow governments to make choices that support efficiency and growth

The safety net as a whole should provide coverage to three rather different groups:-

The chronic poor
Even in "good times" these households are poor. They have limited access to income and the instruments to manage risk, and even small reductions in income can have dire consequences for them.
The transient poor
This group lives near the poverty line, and may fall into poverty when an individual household or the economy as a whole faces hard times.
Those with special circumstances
Sub-groups of the population for whom general stability and prosperity alone will not be sufficient. Their vulnerability may stem from disability, discrimination due to ethnicity, displacement due to conflict, "social pathologies" of drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence, or crime. These groups may need special programs to help them attain a sufficient standard of well-being.
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Old 04-16-2015, 02:49 PM   #519 (permalink)
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do you think paying poor people to be poor might remove some of the incentive not to be poor?
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Old 04-16-2015, 02:53 PM   #520 (permalink)
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do you think paying poor people to be poor might remove some of the incentive not to be poor?
What part of this do you not understand?

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The chronic poor
Even in "good times" these households are poor. They have limited access to income and the instruments to manage risk, and even small reductions in income can have dire consequences for them.
The transient poor
This group lives near the poverty line, and may fall into poverty when an individual household or the economy as a whole faces hard times.
Those with special circumstances
Sub-groups of the population for whom general stability and prosperity alone will not be sufficient. Their vulnerability may stem from disability, discrimination due to ethnicity, displacement due to conflict, "social pathologies" of drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence, or crime. These groups may need special programs to help them attain a sufficient standard of well-being.
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