Should US Legalize Marijuana?

Guybrush · 02-03-2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Well, like I said earlier, why wouldn't people talk about alcohol in this conversation? Alcohol and cannabis were both outlawed around the same time in this country. Prohibition was repealed for one but not the other. I would think as a scientist you'd actually appreciate the reasoning behind that comparison.

I don't think your history of alcohol legality/cannabis legality validates arguments like :

Cannabis should be legalized because alcohol is and that's bad too
If you're against legalization cannabis, you should be against current legalization of alcohol

As someone who seems to generally have a working head on his shoulders, I would think you'd see the reasoning of that.

FETCHER. · 02-03-2012, 07:38 PM

I'm honestly not biased because I do smoke, but I do agree with everything janszoon has had to offer in this thread. I can't see how it's not relevant.

Engine · 02-03-2012, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I know Norwegian culture so I'm using it as an example. Do you feel cannabis is an ingrained part of American culture to the extent where it's comparable with alcohol?

Yes it definitely is. I'm not going to chase stats but the amount of people who smoke weed in the US is Very High. This is important to know. Many, many, many people purchase and consume pot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I'm just trying to point out that the legality of alcohol is a different matter from the legality of cannabis. I wish people would stop mentioning alcohol in every other pro-legalization argument.

The reason that the comparison is relevant is because we can look to relatively recent US history to see how prohibition of alcohol fucked up our society royally.

When alcohol was illegal violent criminals came to power by supplying it to those who wanted to drink (that is to say many, many people). A lot of people died or risked their lives only because violent criminals controlled the alcohol market. And, of course, even the non-violent criminals who produced or supplied alcohol were punished by law if caught.

While marijuana is a different drug that perhaps has a different base of users than alcohol we can see direct comparisons between the prohibition of the two drugs.

In the US: Some smokers grow their own. Some buy from a friend who grows. Some buy from a grower who drives their product all over the country. But many smokers buy from a source that is ultimately run by violent criminals who will kill their competition and anybody who attempts to undermine their business.

Here's an interesting example of what I'm talking about: In college I took a class called The Geology of National Parks. The professor had been to all of them and encouraged us to go to all of them and to enter them from different points than the main entrances. This was so that we could see the less touristy parts of the parks. However, he advised us to definitely NOT visit Volcanoes National Park in Hawaii from anywhere other than the main entrance because you are likely to accidentally stumble upon a large marijuana farm and be shot by its armed guards. He wasn't joking. The fact is that violence will and does occur in the US when popular drugs are illegal. And also, non-violent people involved in the trade go to prison.

Anyway, I think that's the main reason why talking about alcohol makes sense in these arguments. I think you're right that comparisons of the two drugs' effects on users is not all that relevant, though.

edit: Looking back at this thread I see that you've argued for prohibition of weed because of its effect on users compared to that of alcohol. So it's not you who I agree with on that, its just what I think. In fact, you are wrong to think that the dangers of marijuana triggering schizophrenia is not an acceptable risk. It is. As others have said, I think a very tiny percentage of weed smokers suffer from significant mental damage because of it. Remember, lots and lots and lots of people smoke pot. I don't know of any or of anybody who knows anybody who this has happened to. I do however, know personally a person who suffered a schizophrenic break from LSD use. And, like many, I personally know a lot of people who have suffered greatly from alcohol use and abuse. Still, I don't think these things weigh much in the debate over pot legalization.

**Janszoon** · 02-03-2012, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I don't think your history of alcohol legality/cannabis legality validates arguments like :

Cannabis should be legalized because alcohol is and that's bad too
If you're against legalization cannabis, you should be against current legalization of alcohol

As someone who seems to generally have a working head on his shoulders, I would think you'd see the reasoning of that.

lol. Fortunately I'm not making either of those arguments.

blastingas10 · 02-03-2012, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

^ This actually raises an interesting point. If weed were legal it might actually cut down on paranoia.

HAHA so true.

Guybrush · 02-04-2012, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engine

Yes it definitely is. I'm not going to chase stats but the amount of people who smoke weed in the US is Very High. This is important to know. Many, many, many people purchase and consume pot.

The reason that the comparison is relevant is because we can look to relatively recent US history to see how prohibition of alcohol fucked up our society royally.

When alcohol was illegal violent criminals came to power by supplying it to those who wanted to drink (that is to say many, many people). A lot of people died or risked their lives only because violent criminals controlled the alcohol market. And, of course, even the non-violent criminals who produced or supplied alcohol were punished by law if caught.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe cannabis use in the US and it'c cultural importance is anywhere close to alcohol use and its cultural importance at the time of prohibition. I'm no expert on US history with legality, but I would expect that pre-prohibition, alcohol had much the same role in society that it does today. That it was a pleasure the large majority of adults indulged in which a number of people had made a legal business out of pre-prohibition. It had been accepted and was part of food culture a long time before prohibition. People were used to it.

I don't believe the same is true for cannabis users. While there certainly are many, it's mostly prevalent in certain social groups and can't be said to be something adults from just about all walks of life do. Out of the statistics of how many there are who have smoked, most probably just experimented during their teens. It has no real place in food culture beyond hash brownies, no one have legal cannabis jobs that their family have held through generations and I would think that unlike alcohol which is something many consumed weekly pre-prohibition (my guess), the percentage of the population who today use cannabis weekly is relatively much less. Alcohol came into illegality from a long period of social/cultural acceptance. It has a long societal history. Today, cannabis is not coming into illegality from a long period of legality. It is not becoming legal after centuries of use and acceptance on a grand scale. It is not the 1800s and the drugs are different. Hence, there's no reason the two scenarios will play out exactly the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engine

In fact, you are wrong to think that the dangers of marijuana triggering schizophrenia is not an acceptable risk. It is. As others have said, I think a very tiny percentage of weed smokers suffer from significant mental damage because of it.

A few posts made recently in this thread :

Quote:

Originally Posted by fazstp

Not as rare as you'd think. I had two friends hospitalised. They were both subsequently diagnosed with schizophrenia but who knows what role marijuana had in the emergence of their symptoms. I know that whenever they give in to temptation and start smoking again they will very quickly relapse into a psychotic state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

i'm one of those where weed brought out my secret schizophrenia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurora

I think you're assuming all smokers don't know the effects of cannabis use, I very well know it can lead to schitzophrenia and other mental illnesses. It all depends on the person as I've stated before. My brothers been smoking for over 12 years and is fine, yet I have a friend who smoked it for 3 and his head is scrambled egg and he turns into a phycho with a drink in him. All depends on the person. He obviously stopped smoking because he was a paranoid wreck.

Here's a swedish study I linked to : CANNABIS AND SCHIZOPHRENIA A Longitudinal Study of Swedish Conscripts : The Lancet

I read a report that just about all who smoke knows someone who have freaked out more or less on cannabis. Many of them suffered for long periods after the drug has worn off. This happens to newcomers to the drug and it can seriously screw up their lives. This does happen to a lot of people and unlike alcohol, it's way harder to see it coming. I can't understand why people seem to think this is irrelevant. I believe I posted a link to the report earlier in the thread. I may have to dig it up again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

lol. Fortunately I'm not making either of those arguments.

Good, cause I thought maybe you were. You've been making posts like these :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

So is alcohol. I can drink it frequently and not turn into an alcoholic, unlike a lot of other people. Does that mean we should outlaw it?

Yet, if you'd read my posts, you'd know that health-wise, I think the scary part about cannabis health-wise is users can't know beforehand how they will react to the drug. You know that if you drink lots of alcohol every day, that will deteriorate your health. However, you don't know if you're gonna be okay after casually smoking cannabis a total of ten times in your lifetime.

I believe you knew this by the time you wrote that post (you read my posts, don't you?), yet you still decided to make it. It's like instead of making thought out posts with valid points, you're just making up little questions. You force people who debate with you defend their positions over again in an attempt to tire them out.

blastingas10 · 02-04-2012, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I could be wrong, but I don't believe cannabis use in the US and it'c cultural importance is anywhere close to alcohol use and its cultural importance at the time of prohibition. I'm no expert on US history with legality, but I would expect that pre-prohibition, alcohol had much the same role in society that it does today. That it was a pleasure the large majority of adults indulged in which a number of people had made a legal business out of pre-prohibition. It had been accepted and was part of food culture a long time before prohibition. People were used to it.

I don't believe the same is true for cannabis users. While there certainly are many, it's mostly prevalent in certain social groups and can't be said to be something adults from just about all walks of life do. Out of the statistics of how many there are who have smoked, most probably just experimented during their teens. It has no real place in food culture beyond hash brownies, no one have legal cannabis jobs that their family have held through generations and I would think that unlike alcohol which is something many consumed weekly pre-prohibition (my guess), the percentage of the population who today use cannabis weekly is relatively much less. Alcohol came into illegality from a long period of social/cultural acceptance. It has a long societal history. Today, cannabis is not coming into illegality from a long period of legality. It is not becoming legal after centuries of use and acceptance on a grand scale. It is not the 1800s and the drugs are different. Hence, there's no reason the two scenarios will play out exactly the same.

A few posts made recently in this thread :

Here's a swedish study I linked to : CANNABIS AND SCHIZOPHRENIA A Longitudinal Study of Swedish Conscripts : The Lancet

I read a report that just about all who smoke knows someone who have freaked out more or less on cannabis. Many of them suffered for long periods after the drug has worn off. This happens to newcomers to the drug and it can seriously screw up their lives. This does happen to a lot of people and unlike alcohol, it's way harder to see it coming. I can't understand why people seem to think this is irrelevant. I believe I posted a link to the report earlier in the thread. I may have to dig it up again.

Good, cause I thought maybe you were. You've been making posts like these :

Yet, if you'd read my posts, you'd know that health-wise, I think the scary part about cannabis health-wise is users can't know beforehand how they will react to the drug. You know that if you drink lots of alcohol every day, that will deteriorate your health. However, you don't know if you're gonna be okay after casually smoking cannabis a total of ten times in your lifetime.

I believe you knew this by the time you wrote that post (you read my posts, don't you?), yet you still decided to make it. It's like instead of making thought out posts with valid points, you're just making up little questions. You force people who debate with you defend their positions over again in an attempt to tire them out.

Of course not. Adults have jobs that require drug tests. If people were tested for alcohol at work, then you would be saying that about alcohol. And you also have to consider the propaganda that was used to make marijuana look like the devil. People have been brainwashed into thinking that marijuana is horrible and for some illogical reason, alcohol is more acceptable.

Guybrush · 02-04-2012, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10

Of course not. Adults have jobs that require drug tests. If people were tested for alcohol at work, then you would be saying that about alcohol.

So there's been legality and related issues which has kept cannabis from being ingrained into your culture like alcohol has. Hence, its continued prohibition is not parallel to alcohol going from being accepted to becoming illegal in the 1800s.

blastingas10 · 02-04-2012, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I don't believe the same is true for cannabis users. While there certainly are many, it's mostly prevalent in certain social groups and can't be said to be something adults from just about all walks of life do. Out of the statistics of how many there are who have smoked, most probably just experimented during their teens. It has no real place in food culture beyond hash brownies, no one have legal cannabis jobs that their family have held through generations and I would think that unlike alcohol which is something many consumed weekly pre-prohibition (my guess), the percentage of the population who today use cannabis weekly is relatively much less. Alcohol came into illegality from a long period of social/cultural acceptance. It has a long societal history. Today, cannabis is not coming into illegality from a long period of legality. It is not becoming legal after centuries of use and acceptance on a grand scale. It is not the 1800s and the drugs are different. Hence, there's no reason the two scenarios will play out exactly the same.

Examples of currently available hemp food products include salad dressings, nutrition bars, breads, cookies, granola, waffles, nut butter, chips, pasta, frozen deserts and cold-pressed oil supplements.

Like other oil seeds, the hemp nut consists mainly of oil (typically 44%), protein (33%) and dietary fiber and other carbohydrates (12%, predominantly from residues of the hull). In addition, the nut contains vitamins (particularly the tocopherols and tocotrienols of the Vitamin E complex), phytosterols and trace minerals. Overall, hemp's main nutritional advantage over other seeds lies in the composition of its oil, i.e. its fatty acid profile, and in its protein which contains all of the essential amino acids in nutritionally significant amounts and in a desirable ratio.

Hemp is a high protein seed containing all nine of the essential amino acids (like flax). It also has high amounts of fatty acids and fiber as well as containing vitamin E and trace minerals. It has a balanced ratio of omega 3 to 6 fats at around a three to one ratio.

The protein content of the hemp seed is supposed to be very digestible. Many people noted their personal experience of finding that hemp seed protein did not cause bloating or gas, like some of their whey, or other protein shakes did.

And, get this, unlike soy which has super high amounts of phytic acid (that anti-nutrient that prevents us from absorbing minerals), hemp seed doesn’t contain phytic acid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

A few posts made recently in this thread :

Here's a swedish study I linked to : CANNABIS AND SCHIZOPHRENIA A Longitudinal Study of Swedish Conscripts : The Lancet

I read a report that just about all who smoke knows someone who have freaked out more or less on cannabis. Many of them suffered for long periods after the drug has worn off. This happens to newcomers to the drug and it can seriously screw up their lives. This does happen to a lot of people and unlike alcohol, it's way harder to see it coming. I can't understand why people seem to think this is irrelevant. I believe I posted a link to the report earlier in the thread. I may have to dig it up again.

That's definitely wrong.

Guybrush · 02-04-2012, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10

Examples of currently available hemp food products include salad dressings, nutrition bars, breads, cookies, granola, waffles, nut butter, chips, pasta, frozen deserts and cold-pressed oil supplements.

Like other oil seeds, the hemp nut consists mainly of oil (typically 44%), protein (33%) and dietary fiber and other carbohydrates (12%, predominantly from residues of the hull). In addition, the nut contains vitamins (particularly the tocopherols and tocotrienols of the Vitamin E complex), phytosterols and trace minerals. Overall, hemp's main nutritional advantage over other seeds lies in the composition of its oil, i.e. its fatty acid profile, and in its protein which contains all of the essential amino acids in nutritionally significant amounts and in a desirable ratio.

Hemp is a high protein seed containing all nine of the essential amino acids (like flax). It also has high amounts of fatty acids and fiber as well as containing vitamin E and trace minerals. It has a balanced ratio of omega 3 to 6 fats at around a three to one ratio.

The protein content of the hemp seed is supposed to be very digestible. Many people noted their personal experience of finding that hemp seed protein did not cause bloating or gas, like some of their whey, or other protein shakes did.

And, get this, unlike soy which has super high amounts of phytic acid (that anti-nutrient that prevents us from absorbing minerals), hemp seed doesn’t contain phytic acid.

I thought it was obvious, but the point concerns cannabis as an intoxicant.

Quote:

That's definitely wrong.

I wrote "just about" and there's a chance you know someone who have not told you about their experience because they find it uncomfortable to talk about.