TockTockTock

The Zeitgeist theory itself.

P A N

...go on...

TockTockTock

You're talking about changing mankind's perception of everything. Sure, some of the more socialistic-thinking people may have an easier time agreeing with this, but as for carrying out the actual process? I don't think so. Being a Buddhist, I find that many of the points you're making are GOOD points. If I could choose between the current style of living and the style you proposed, then I would instantly choose the latter. But people are stubborn and to have 6 billion people to go with these ideals is unrealistic and a bit forcing on those who don't wish to think like you do. Also, like Mr Dave previously said, the world will NEVER be fair.

P A N

fair enough assumptions, based on hindsight. but looking at the past doesn't change the future. the thing about changing peoples' perspectives is that it's already happening. and it's not any one man's efforts or a certain political agenda which has served as the catalyst for this either. it's just science. as our technologies get better, we actually become more able to look into the future by assessing pure data and noting trends and variables and so on and so forth. since mankind's inception we have been taught and conditioned to look at the past as a benchmark for the future (which in a lot of simpler cases is the right thing to do), but now we longer have to count simply on that.

if we looked at the projected growth of the world population for the next 500 years - even if no one believes that without reducing the population we can't survive - we can calculate the numbers involved in assessing the needs of the populace. this was impossible probably 25 years ago.

what people rarely take into consideration is that all this information is actually changing us. technology and it's benefits are directly linked to our evolution. and if that's not changing perception, nothing is.

the hinge is money. the whole idea of this is that money does not only NOT WORK, but it is a detriment to all the people of earth on all social and psychological levels. the funny part, is that we're seeing this plain as day all over the place. bailouts? WHAT THE F*CK? soon enough hyper-inflation will ensue and a can of coke will cost you a million dollars. at which point the people who want to eat will resort to unprecedented violence.

basically, what i'm trying to say in response to jackpat, is that peoples' minds are not made of concrete. should circumstances continue as they are, people will begin to wake at a greater rate and start looking for smarter ways to do things. look at OccultHawk. i don't know who he is, but he fits into a demographic, and part of that demographic believes with all their hearts that the earth can't sustain as many people as it has. that's a global view. and that's all people need. once you have that, you're looking for truth. and once your looking for truth, anything is possible, cuz the world is based on capitalism, and capitalists - at least the successful ones - are liars.

TockTockTock

Uhm... some people's brains ARE made of concrete. Sometimes it takes a jackhammer to reach them. Of course, this requires fast and forceful action - which is not the way to go. This can cause aggression and could end in a very undesirable way. Instead, you need to let time slowly erode that "concrete" to the point where you can reach them without causing any harm to the people or society itself. What you're asking is simply not possible to do in a short period of time. It will take years (tens, maybe hundreds) to get this plan to work. If you look at the past, you'll see that governments are slowly becoming more and more "progressive" along with the people they govern. I think if this continues, then the zeitgeist theory may come true. I just think it won't happen in this lifetime.

P A N

maybe these progressive governments are near ready to employ the philosophies of the zeitgeist movement... and maybe they're gonna use the fall of the monetary system as the catalyst.

i doubt it. but seeing as the fall of the monetary system is well on its way, do you think we have time to let this sink in to the minds of those with heads full of concrete?

soooo.... has anyone even watched zeitgeist 3 yet?

GuitarBizarre

You're banging on about how money doesn't work as if its self evident. Its worked for thousands of years and crisis relating to it have come and go. I'd say thats good evidence it does, in fact, work.

If you're going to hinge your argument on that assertion you should probably explain exactly how it is a system that has worked for thousands of years, doesn't work.

Also, you should probably look up the definition of fiat currency, as it seems you don't fully understand how currency has worked in recent history.


Edit: Also, the last case of Hyper-Inflation was Zimbabwe, a country with corrupt government and a hideously poor way of life even BEFORE its economy collapsed. Its hardly a damning indightment of monetary systems, its a comment on the incompetence of its government.

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OccultHawk

I thought I might read one of Jacque Fresco's book but they all seem to be out of print and super expensive on Amazon which means all the library copies will already be stolen.

On the subject of getting past money: I really believe that this is something mankind has to do. I know it seems to people that it's the only way the world could exist probably, because it's all we've ever known, but I hope more people start thinking about how society could be structured so that people don't need or use money any more. Y'all know the comic sci-fi writer Terry Pratchett? I think this was in one of his books called The Hogfather. He describes all these crazy systems that evolved on various planets. All kinds of outrageous scenerios, right? Then the narrator says something like 'I've only heard about this, I'm not sure if it really exists, but I heard there's one planet where the top species prints paper with numbers on it and almost every member of the species spends his entire life trying to collect as much of this paper as possible.' Another book excerpt that pops in my mind is from Michio Kaku's The Physics of the Impossible. But he talks about the implications if mankind develops the ability to get really effective with manipulating atoms. Our basic understanding is that all that matter that we deal with in a tactile way, at least, is made up of atoms so if we get really good at rearranging them we're going to be able to use that technology to make a lot of things obsolete. I don't know much about Fresco but I hope we can get to the point where technological developments start to make a real difference in a positive way. Right now I think we're at a really dark backward stage in our evolution and time and again it's one step forward but two steps back with technology. While reading the Unabomber's Manifesto I had a hard time disagreeing with his premise that technology isn't liberating but rather enslaving. But it's on us how we use it and how we allow it to be used. And just to be clear, I don't idolize the Unabomber and I think his actions were deplorable. I still think his manifesto is worth reading, however.

OccultHawk

It's been a tool of oppresion since its inception.

GuitarBizarre

You can't state that without providing at least an argument to back it up using legitimate reasoning. I could just as authoritatively state the sky is made of eggs, but if I couldn't make a compelling argument as to why nobody would be obligated or even expected to believe me.

Edit: Also, your little Hogfather quote isn't just non-academic, but also taken entirely out of context, and silly to boot. Anyone who has read Pratchett's work knows that would have been a satirical comment intended for humorous purposes, not a political commentary. His commentary across all of his works has been sociological, not political, and never intended as anything but idle observation.

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