Unschooling

[someonecompletelyrandom]

All for it. The End.

What? Don't know what i'm talking about? Pssh. Where have YOU been? Anyway watch this:

Extreme Parenting: 'Radical Unschooling'

Ignoring the horrible, horrible bias that Good Morning America prides itself on... what do you think? I myself am a long time critic of the U.S Public Schooling system and I've always been of the notion myself that when kids reach high school age they should be treated as people... i.e allowed to make their own decisions regarding education.... they should learn about what they want to learn about. Will some end up dumb as rocks? Maybe. But it's no better then how dumb kids in the Public School System seem to be - where it's all about passing the next test, not really about "learning" at all... it's just stress.

Now, I know this will never fly. If you don't get your GED you'll probably never end up with a decent job. But I do think major reform is needed for US Public Schooling, and I for one - somebody whose graduated high school years early, definitely support movements like this.

[mr dave]

Originally Posted by Conan

All for it. The End.

What? Don't know what i'm talking about? Pssh. Where have YOU been? Anyway watch this:

Extreme Parenting: 'Radical Unschooling'

Ignoring the horrible, horrible bias that Good Morning America prides itself on... what do you think? I myself am a long time critic of the U.S Public Schooling system and I've always been of the notion myself that when kids reach high school age they should be treated as people... i.e allowed to make their own decisions regarding education.... they should learn about what they want to learn about. Will some end up dumb as rocks? Maybe. But it's no better then how dumb kids in the Public School System seem to be - where it's all about passing the next test, not really about "learning" at all... it's just stress.

Now, I know this will never fly. If you don't get your GED you'll probably never end up with a decent job. But I do think major reform is needed for US Public Schooling, and I for one - somebody whose graduated high school years early, definitely support movements like this.

so... how is that going to prepare a young person for the working reality of doing what the job needs you to do as opposed to doing what your ego wants to do? it's the same logic that has people trying to validate wearing pajamas to the office.

i'm not a fan of watching articles so here's the text version if anyone is interested - Unschooling: Homeschooling Without Books, Tests or Classes - ABC News

on one hand i totally agree that there needs to be an overhaul to the public education system in north america (i'm only familiar with the Canadian side of things - the biggest difference seems to be scale rather than policy). on the other putting full control of the education in the child's hands has me wondering how they're eventually going to deal with legitimate conflicts of interest.

it's like one of the doctor's in one of the related articles states - "The whole concept of cooperating with your kid, it's kind of cool in theory, and if a child was a little adult I think it would be great, but he's a child."

^ this is the fatal flaw in the parent's belief that their special little angel is more special than all the other special little angel snowflakes out there. not unlike this great quote from the mom - "They have experiences and knowledge that other people don't," - really??? i'm pretty sure that happens to absolutely everyone as they progress along their individual paths through life. last time i checked i didn't limit myself from learning about things that interested me because i had to learn about things that did not, nor have i ever met anyone that did.

just how much preparation for the realities of working for a living do these kids have or do mummy and daddy plan on taking care of them until they're in their 40s and all of a sudden it's the kids turn to start taking care of the parents?

[VEGANGELICA]

Originally Posted by mr dave

last time i checked i didn't limit myself from learning about things that interested me because i had to learn about things that did not, nor have i ever met anyone that did.

I agree with the concerns expressed in the video: children who are not given options and exposed to the vast stockpile of human knowledge will not have a chance to learn as much as they could about what interests them.

As mr dave says, people can still pursue passions even if they also learn information that isn't so interesting to them. Also, I'd like to point out that the knowledge that may not be so immediately exciting for children to learn can be useful to them later when they pursue their passions. A child may not see how learning A, B, and C will enable her to do D more easily.

However, I also feel that the U.S. public school system, as experienced by my 1st grader, is in some ways horrible: children are rewarded with candy, are told to put their heads down if they forget to bring in homework, and get in trouble if they shriek with excitement...in FIRST GRADE! The classroom atmosphere practically gives ME an ulcer.

I tell my child that I wish I could send him to the alternative public school program I attended when in elementary school, and he says he wishes he could go. The alternative program (in the public school system) exposed us to a wide variety of topics, but allowed us to learn what we wanted at our own speed, and we had lots of freedoms. Unfortunately, this successful program was killed off by those in power who preferred the more traditional school methods.

The U.S. public school system that I've seen in action sometimes places order, heirarchy (as a method of dominating children) and rote learning above creativity and freedom. I'm afraid the public school system sometimes does a very good job of killing off children's enjoyment in learning for its own sake.

[Fruitonica]

Yeah, it's a naive system to think that a child always has the insight to act in ways that will benefit it in the future - such as learning valuable skills. And even if they envision a career that doesn't involve much of the stuff they teach you in high school, learning English, History, Science and Maths will give you an appreciation of critical thinking, hard work and a broader perspective.

I don't think that public education in America can be in such ****ty shape that it would be better to keep them at home. It would be a pretty rare child who would flag at school and flourish in unschool.

[someonecompletelyrandom]

Originally Posted by mr dave

so... how is that going to prepare a young person for the working reality of doing what the job needs you to do as opposed to doing what your ego wants to do? it's the same logic that has people trying to validate wearing pajamas to the office.

i'm not a fan of watching articles so here's the text version if anyone is interested - Unschooling: Homeschooling Without Books, Tests or Classes - ABC News

on one hand i totally agree that there needs to be an overhaul to the public education system in north america (i'm only familiar with the Canadian side of things - the biggest difference seems to be scale rather than policy). on the other putting full control of the education in the child's hands has me wondering how they're eventually going to deal with legitimate conflicts of interest.

it's like one of the doctor's in one of the related articles states - "The whole concept of cooperating with your kid, it's kind of cool in theory, and if a child was a little adult I think it would be great, but he's a child."

^ this is the fatal flaw in the parent's belief that their special little angel is more special than all the other special little angel snowflakes out there. not unlike this great quote from the mom - "They have experiences and knowledge that other people don't," - really??? i'm pretty sure that happens to absolutely everyone as they progress along their individual paths through life. last time i checked i didn't limit myself from learning about things that interested me because i had to learn about things that did not, nor have i ever met anyone that did.

just how much preparation for the realities of working for a living do these kids have or do mummy and daddy plan on taking care of them until they're in their 40s and all of a sudden it's the kids turn to start taking care of the parents?

Okay, so you make some good points and maybe I was a little premature to jump on the boat with this one. I do still think that the US Education system is absolutely horrible from 1st Grade and all the way through College. I think we need to look at the (much more successful) European systems.

I still believe that if structured a similar system could easily work well within the public schooling system. For example, at high school age, if the kid plans on pursuing a career in biology, give him/her a biology course. If he/she doesn't and would rather pursue a career involving history, give him/her that. If he's undecided, give him/her the general courses until he makes up his/her mind.

And college... don't even get me started on what a waste of money that is.

I don't know I think i'm ranting now... but my main point is that schooling should be about learning... about gaining knowledge of the world around you. Not about passing the state-mandated test or striving after a stupid little piece of paper that says you're qualified for something.

But the point I had that I never actually made was movements like this and homeschooling will hopefully send the right signals to the people that can make change happen.

[Burning Down]

This is the first time I've actually heard of this, perhaps because it's probably not a growing trend in Canada. I'm not opposed to the idea - I know there are a lot of liberal parents out there who would "unschool" their kids if they felt it was the right thing to do - but I don't support it. My issues with unschooling are these:

• How are the kids going to learn to think critically?
• Will these kids be able to get jobs that insure financial security?
• Do they know how to build proper relationships with people? One thing that you learn in a real school is how to make friends and keep them!
• Will they be smart enough to learn (for themselves, of course!) that they will need to follow orders once they get a job?
• Building on the previous point, if they get a job do they know that they can't just fuck around like they did at home?
• If the child actually wants to go to university, are they going to be prepared for the school environment? I know that it's a little more liberal, but it's absolutely critical that you have the study skills needed to actually learn something so that it's NOT a waste of money.
• What about knowing proper grammar and sentence structure? Personally, it absolutely IRKS me when people don't use proper grammar. It makes you look dumb and uneducated no matter how educated you actually are.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Also, there was a clip in the video that showed another family with younger kids. The parents stated that they are so relaxed with their kids that proper hygiene isn't even required in that house! That's absolutely disgusting - it's bad for the child's health and also makes it look like they are neglecting their kids. They are, in a way, I guess. But that's just gross! Don't want to brush your teeth? No worries, do it whenever you want, if you want to do it at all. Don't want to take a shower/bath? Wash your hands after you use the toilet? Same thing. Gross. I don't care if parents want to practise unschooling, I just hope that they teach their kids proper hygiene habits!

[Stone Birds]

who knows?
for some it may work out
for others it may not

but if we do not advance in ideas than how can we advance at all (i tried to quote something but i don't remember the original quote)

but i know school simply isn't for everyone, we are all unique, it's a plain stereotype to say kids are to stupid to make the right decisions, what exactly are the "right decisions" did you come up with them did bush come up with them did obama invent them did the beatles make them?

just wanted to be a bit of a devil's advocate

[mr dave]

Originally Posted by Conan

Okay, so you make some good points and maybe I was a little premature to jump on the boat with this one. I do still think that the US Education system is absolutely horrible from 1st Grade and all the way through College. I think we need to look at the (much more successful) European systems.

i TOTALLY agree with you on this point. the system needs an overhaul, student are people, not products, schools shouldn't be ISO approved.

the best method i remember reading about sounds somewhat similar to what VEGANGELICA mentioned an alternative teaching method where the direction of the learning is controlled by the child but still within a scholastic environment. basically there were still traditional classes in the mornings, language, science, math, but the afternoons were open to the student's discretion but they were still expected to learn, they still had to hand in assignments but they were the ones to determine what those entailed (with the help of teachers so that it would be both feasible and educational).

it never really flew but at least the idea got out there.

[Freebase Dali]

I can understand instituting something like electives for all school grades, but the idea that children should decide the totality of their curriculum is both absurd and naive.

As Mr. Dave has said, the traditional courses that are standard educational musts should be maintained.
I believe any overhaul procedures involving those traditional courses should be focused on teaching and learning styles as dictated by individual student propensity. For instance, if student A is good at math but student B is having a hard time, there should be school-funded tutoring services for student B. It should be the priority and responsibility of the school system to get all of their students to a specified level of achievement, even if this means "leveled" classes for the same course.

If children are allowed "electives" as part of their curriculum, these electives should lead to, generally, the same educational paths you would see in colleges. I mean, although you could provide an elective to a 1st grader that dealt with Sponge Bob Square Pants in a Bill Nye the Science Guy way, there should be a general narrowing and growing sophistication within each elective that ascends with grade. By grade 12, these electives should have enough definitive branches in educational studies to have allowed a student to know exactly what higher education he/she wishes to pursue.

[mr dave]

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

For instance, if student A is good at math but student B is having a hard time, there should be school-funded tutoring services for student B. It should be the priority and responsibility of the school system to get all of their students to a specified level of achievement, even if this means "leveled" classes for the same course.

the flipside of this is that student A shouldn't have to wait for the rest of their class to catch up to their level. have advanced classes moved to the black list of political correctness over the last decade or so?

really dig the electives idea though.