CanwllCorfe

I've wanted to for awhile. It's not very useful

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Your eyes were never yet let in to see the majesty and riches of the mind, but dwell in darkness; for your God is blind.

mr dave

you'd then prove your identity the exact same way anyone else does. some kind of picture ID. like any other person who gets stopped by the cops.

i'm sure there are ways the info from the DMV could be used to find out where a person was born.

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someonecompletelyrandom

still seems like unfair and hostile treatment based on a person's physical makeup.

bungalow

you pulled this right out of your ass. you have to be a permanent resident of the US for 5 years before you are eligible to become a citizen. then you can begin the naturalization process which takes at a minimum 6 months (that's the optimistic estimate) and could take as long as two years. additionally, the fees are far more than 600-800$. a person wishing to become a US citizen must pay the application and processing fee for obtaining a greencard--as much as $1000, I-130/140 fee-355/475$, n-400 fee-675$, form I-485 fee- 930$, employment authorization form--340$. those numbers right there dwarf your bs, and that doesn't even include hospital fees, the passport fee, nor attorney's fees (which are the biggest expense of all--over 1000$). i showed my colombian roommate, who is a permanent resident and currently in the process of obtaining his citizenship, your post and he laughed out loud. you have no idea what you are talking about.

bungalow

you, as an american citizen, are not required to provide identification to a police officer simply because he requests it. you are only required to provide identification if you are being lawfully arrested (or if you are doing something that requires you have a license, such as operating a motor vehicle). so no, it is not the same scenario as every other person who gets stopped by the cops, because any old person who gets stopped by the police is not required to identify themselves, much less prove that they are a legal citizen or risk detention and/or arrest.

Freebase Dali

I don't know how far off topic I'll be with this, but I just wanted to put it out there and get other people's insight into it...

About 9 years ago I used to work as a welder in a large assembly factory where I was employed for about a year and a half. In that time, I met and talked to a lot of Mexicans (who comprised about 3 quarters of my department alone) and of those people, over half of them were illegal.
In conversations with them, particularly the men, I learned that most of them did not want to become a citizen at all. Their sole mission was to make as much money as possible to send back to Mexico to support their families, and not have to pay a lot of taxes on it. They would work it so that the very least amount of income tax was taken out, there was no state tax--this being Florida--and by the time tax season came around, they obviously didn't file. They wouldn't be in the system anyway.
So avoiding paying back taxes they would otherwise owe was an advantage to them.
Also, the exchange rate was in their favor for sending the money back to Mexico.

I'm not condoning nor condemning any of this, but from talking to these people I know why many of them were doing it. The interest wasn't to become an American citizen. It was simply to get a job in America because it pays a lot better than in Mexico. Some of the guys had been working there long enough and their families were even considered "rich" in Mexico because of the money they made for them.

I just wonder how some of you view that scenario.
Personally, if I were in their shoes I'd be doing the same thing. But being in my own, I have more of an objection for economic reasons. I still don't really know how I feel about it in every regard.

bungalow

obviously it is preferable to go through legal means to become a citizen if it is feasible for you, but i can't condemn or view as criminal scum people who simply want to improve the quality of their life and their families' lives through undesirable, laborious work.

duga

You bring up a very good point, and it got me thinking about the way other countries handle this kind of situation. In Singapore, they allow citizens of other countries (namely poorer regions of Indian, Malaysia, and Indonesia) to work construction and other menial labor jobs tax free to save up their money for the period of time they work there. This allows them to send a sizable amount of money back to their families, they can go back after the job is done, and come back when they need more money. This is a win win for both sides as Singapore gets their construction done in a timely manner with a readily available labor force and they get more money than they would ever make back in their home countries.

This, I think, would work wonders here in the US.

Edit: An obvious argument to this is they would still be taking a lot of potential jobs for US residents. Granted, Singapore is a tiny country, but the point is they have very high expectations of its citizens. Their government also makes sure everyone has a job, even with the construction jobs given to foreigners. Honestly, I feel if they can do it the US can do it as well.

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Freebase Dali

I think that's already happening here, but it's just not legal at the moment. Companies hire illegals because they can pay them a lot less than they pay legals, as illegals can't exactly complain to the state. This results in lower cost of doing business, which benefits both the consumer and the economy itself.
It might seem exploitative, but in reality it's not in most cases. The lower pay is still an incentive for illegals, otherwise they wouldn't be working illegally.
Obviously, it's a little different in situations where people are actually trying to escape oppressive, harsh countries and are working to support themselves in America... and it's really hard to create an ethics guide for who's in what situation based on why they say they're here illegally, but overall what you've said in your reply is pretty much what's happening in many cases.

I think the impact that it has on a lot of people's opinions, though, is the job factor. If companies can hire temporary citizens for labor jobs, for half the pay than regular citizens, then companies will tend to do that. Especially when there are no legal repercussions. There's a large percentage of the work force that's part of the labor category, and a large percentage of actual citizens who rely on these jobs. The loudest (or most relevant) objections to illegal workers come from this group and politicians who sympathize with this group's situation.
It can be theorized that guidelines could be set for hiring-quota systems that stipulate only X amount of temporary citizens could be hired, but from a country's perspective, the first priority should be your own citizens... and that X amount are the amount of your own citizens you're putting out of a job.

While I'm sure there are many different ways to approach the problem, above all I think a country should look out for the welfare of its own citizens first before looking out for the welfare of another country's citizens. When the needs of your own country are met, THEN it's time to start helping other people. At the moment, we're no where near meeting the needs of our own people.

duga

This is the biggest obstacle right now. I completely agree. Singapore is a very rich country that barely felt the effects of the global recession. Plus this method of doing things has been in effect since they gained independence in the 60's.

I still think it is important to look at its success, and once we have stabilized a bit here, we should definitely look at instituting a similar method. Not only would it provide a constant and cheap workforce for us, but the fact that we are openly trying to help another country (and only as much as they want to be helped) will improve relations and how we are viewed globally.

So, all in all, this would be a long way off. But I'm glad you brought it up because this is definitely the way things should head, in my opinion.

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Confusion will be my epitaph...