cardboard adolescent

emptiness is loneliness and loneliness is cleanliness and cleanliness is godliness and god is empty, just like MEEEE

mr dave

never really noticed the metaphysical aspects of the Pumpkins before now. gonna have to re-listen to a bunch of their tunes again with a fresh perspective hahaha

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i am the universe

cardboard adolescent

that doesn't make sense. if there is a first cause nothing caused it, that's what makes it the first. and if there is a first cause then there must be something special about it since it isn't subject to causality (again, this seems to imply an absurdity: conclusion one).

you seem to be saying: causality is caused but since this is impossible we don't know what caused it.
i would say: existence is impossible, existence exists, therefore, god

Inuzuka Skysword

You are trying to explain causality outside of the realm where causality exists. No causes can exist before the first cause, so the first cause must be an uncaused cause by virtue of what it is. No causal law existed before it. You call it a miracle, but that is what it has to be. It isn't special in that it is outside the realm of causal law. It seems like it makes no sense, but it makes a lot of sense that the first cause would seem to make no sense since it was the first cause. You call it absurd and throw it away. I accept the fact that it makes no sense since it should not make sense being what it is.

I am saying that causality exists and moving from there, not trying to explain it. When we try to explain it, then it seems impossible until we realize that the question we are asking is "Why why?" We can't give a why, since this would produce a circular argument.

cardboard adolescent

so it makes sense that it makes no sense... DO YOU REALIZE YOU'RE SPEAKING LIKE A TAOIST?!? we can't give a why because we run into a circle but THIS IS TRUE FOR EVERY QUESTION WE ASK BECAUSE THEY ALL LEAD BACK TO THE CIRCLE. i call it a miracle because it is what it is and it is what it has to be and its incomprehensible and paradoxical and yet it is AND THAT'S WHAT GOD IS! MY GOD MAN, DON'T YOU SEE?!?! i don't call it absurd and throw it away i call it beautiful and worship it!!!

mr dave

but you can also likely wrap your head around the idea that everything is nothing and still smile where most other people would start cracking.


then why do you even bother getting out of bed in the morning? what's the point of having the ability to reason? to contemplate? to have critical thought? if we shouldn't desire to know we shouldn't have the ability to think for ourselves. admittedly it would be super awesome to going back to being a baby and having someone take care of every single need i might have and 'not desiring to know' answers to bigger questions, but that's just not a realistic perspective.

the answer to 'why?' is irrelevant, hence the purpose of personal belief.

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i am the universe

Inuzuka Skysword

I said it makes sense that it seems like it makes no sense. Therefore, I am not contradicting myself, but I acknowledge that it seems like a paradox. It makes sense that seems like it makes no sense because of what it is. It isn't actually a contradiction. Causal law is an axiom you have to accept if you are to accept thinking itself, since it runs hand in hand with logic. The law of contradiction cannot be defended unless one uses it and the same applies to giving the cause for the causal law. They are axioms that don't need to be explained outside of themselves.

I would agree that they are beautiful and I would say I worship them, though not in the sense that I read out of some sacred book or pray to them. I value them highly, and as axioms, they are the base of all thought.

I still don't see how this line of though fits within any of the conclusions you gave since I do not reject causal law, nor do I call it a closed loop, and I certainly don't know whether it is infinite or not. The answer is that I don't know why, but one can't know why if they realize the question they are asking.

Stone Birds

i'm agnostic so i believe there's something but pretty much all the scriptures from every religion make very little sense and contradict themselves all the time

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Odyshape

How is that agnosticism?

RVCA

How is that not agnosticism?