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Old 10-08-2010, 09:28 PM   #431 (permalink)
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I think it's less reasonable to separate sexuality from every other part of the human psyche/body which has scientifically been proven to be subjective to mutation.

EDIT: And a compelling example in favour of sexuality having a basis in genetics is Tegan and Sara; identical, homosexual twins.
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:48 PM   #432 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Freebase Dali View Post
@ Emo:

You're on the right track here. The "wiring" you're talking about is a reference to hard-coded biological data. Even if we never isolate a gene that determines sexual preference, it's hard to refute the evidence that there is a biological constant at work regarding sexual preference. It is evident in all species that reproduce, and sexuality itself is dictated by chemicals in the body. It is biologically imperative for opposite sexes to be attracted to each other for purposes of reproduction and propagation of species. This is all obvious.

Now, when humans are developing, their sexuality is obviously not in [major] play until they reach a certain stage (puberty). This is probably because the developing person simply won't be able to "do anything about it anyway" so to speak. AKA, the body isn't ready for reproduction until then. But like you say, the "wiring", or more specifically the "biologically coded" instructions that exist in us all along are only then switched on. We are conceived with all the DNA we carry throughout our lives, but during development, certain genes come into play. It stands to reason that if a sex gene or sequence of genes do not do what they are supposed to do, then there will be a different outcome. This is evident in evolution itself, where it's obvious under observation the differences between biological entities where certain genes differ.

Even scientists don't fully understand the entirety of the genome, but we can draw some further reaching conclusions based on what we currently know. And currently, it's pretty obvious that homosexuality is a genetic thing. It's just not provable at the moment. But saying that homosexuality is a product solely of molestation, rape, or some other traumatic environmental occurrence is even less so. Especially considering all the gays out there who have lived perfectly normal "occurrence-free" lives.
Thanks for further explaining, much appreciated, i always have trouble going into detail about things. although i dont think there will EVER be solid proof on this, nothing in science is ever certain, we can support a hypothesis, but since we cant really watch exactly what happens exactly when it happens, nothing in science is ever provable. just saying. but once these scientists can come up with a theory they can support more than the others, they'll stick with that. i think at the moment they're doing studies on how it has to do with something specifically in the brain (dont remember exactly what it was now though), they're finding that in straight guys and lesbians the left side of the brain is a bit bigger than the right, in straight girls and gay guys both hemispheres are about the same size. something like that.
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I am just curious to see some statistics on the sexual orientation of the forum's members. I do believe the forum is run mostly of male heterosexual men, and I wonder if the statistics are represented here.
Male men? Are there other kinds of men?
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:52 PM   #433 (permalink)
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Nooooo, science is definitely irrefutable in a number of areas. Like physics. You don't pick a fight with gravity. Unless you're one of those people (scientologists?) who thinks life as we know it is a dream/alien experiment/government coverup.
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:53 PM   #434 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
I think it's less reasonable to separate sexuality from every other part of the human psyche/body which has scientifically been proven to be subjective to mutation.

EDIT: And a compelling example in favour of sexuality having a basis in genetics is Tegan and Sara; identical, homosexual twins.
Hmmmm, no chance Tegan and Sara grew up in the same surroundings and environment with the same people huh?

EDIT:
Also, is roughly 4 percent of the world's population mutated?


...theres no way. Sorry.

But I can definitely see 4 percent of the world's population with a skewed mindset.

Last edited by Flower Child; 10-08-2010 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:58 PM   #435 (permalink)
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I haven't heard of any scientific study that suggests this.
I would definitely reconsider my opinion if there was some evidence of course, but personally I have yet to hear of any.
Uh... All [except (1)] of the things I typed that you're responding to here are fact. I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about, but for the sake of argument:
1. I said "if". Check that word out. (Used for supposition in logical comparison with the following:
2. Fact: there are indeed mutations in genetic sequences that cause anomalies in humans. You should agree that this is a biological phenomenon, and not a phenomenon that involves being molested or something to that effect, correct? (I'll assume yes here)
3. Because you agree with (2), you agree that IF base sexual preference exists as a biological function (which makes sense, because we probably wouldn't be very prolific as a species if it didn't) that it is entirely POSSIBLE that there could be a functional misstep in the biology of basic sexuality, as referenced in (2).

Now, I understand the apprehension in believing something scientific before there is proof, but you only have to use logic. In the scenario where a gay man or woman only becomes that way because he or she was traumatized into it requires FAR more supposition. And since there are many cases of homosexuals who have not been traumatized in any way refutes the entire position all together.

Quote:
I do not think any biological changes happen when a person decides or discovers they are gay. I think their mindset changes and that is all, yet I also feel like that is enough. No biological or instinctual changes needed.

I fail to see how that contradicts.

EDIT:
TO MAKE MY POINT MORE CLEAR

I feel like a mindset change is enough for a person to feel they are gay and to want the same sex, ultimately smothering out their instinctual feelings.
I dunno 'bout that. You're basically saying that every homosexual is aware of his or her "decision" to be gay and can simply "undecide". Or maybe you're saying that someone can be shocked into changing their sexual preference and they may not even realize it was an environmental thing? Either way, I think it'd be pretty hard to provide proof of either thing being a constant decider of homosexuality when there are so many people out there who can tell you a different story via experience.

And just for a side-quest, what do you think it would take for a person to "override" his own biological instincts and start being sexually attracted to the opposite gender?
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:00 PM   #436 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Flower Child View Post
Hmmmm, no chance Tegan and Sara grew up in the same surroundings and environment with the same people huh?

EDIT:
Also, is roughly 4 percent of the world's population mutated?


...theres no way. Sorry.

But I can definitely see 4 percent of the world's population with a skewed mindset.
You obviously have a very incorrect idea of what genetic mutation actually is.

We're not talking about Freaks here...
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:00 PM   #437 (permalink)
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Hmmmm, no chance Tegan and Sara grew up in the same surroundings and environment with the same people huh?
Well sure, but even then they aren't the same human being. Sets of identical twins do not grow up to be identical people.

That said, I don't have examples of identical twins who are a straight/homosexual pair. I'm not saying they don't exist, they very well may, but unless you are prepared to offer them, his theory is still valid, because mutations don't occur only at birth.

Truth be told, your argument is somewhat annoying, because it consists of refuting points with "Well you can't prove it's true." I invite you to offer some counterpoints of your own.

Regardless, I'm not sure people should know the source of it, because imagine the can of worms that would open up in either suggested instance.
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:12 PM   #438 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Freebase Dali View Post
Uh... All [except (1)] of the things I typed that you're responding to here are fact. I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about, but for the sake of argument:
1. I said "if". Check that word out. (Used for supposition in logical comparison with the following:
2. Fact: there are indeed mutations in genetic sequences that cause anomalies in humans. You should agree that this is a biological phenomenon, and not a phenomenon that involves being molested or something to that effect, correct? (I'll assume yes here)
3. Because you agree with (2), you agree that IF base sexual preference exists as a biological function (which makes sense, because we probably wouldn't be very prolific as a species if it didn't) that it is entirely POSSIBLE that there could be a functional misstep in the biology of basic sexuality, as referenced in (2).
Fact: Everything I say is fact, and I expect you all to accept it without question. Including you Freebase. And I clearly outlined that in my before post. Obviously.

Cmon, we're talking about something that affects roughly 4 percent of the population! (NOTE: I said roughly) I'm pretty sure that if scientists could prove people were born gay then it would have been done, or we would have heard something about it.

Just like you are assuming......I'm assuming that people are successfully able to smother instinctual feelings (sexuality) as a result to deal with trama, environment, desperation, society, WHATEVER, just like dogs are able to smother their instinct to bite after society affects or 'trains' them otherwise. A mindset changes. The instinct is still there, just smothered.

Quote:
Now, I understand the apprehension in believing something scientific before there is proof, but you only have to use logic. In the scenario where a gay man or woman only becomes that way because he or she was traumatized into it requires FAR more supposition. And since there are many cases of homosexuals who have not been traumatized in any way refutes the entire position all together.



I dunno 'bout that. You're basically saying that every homosexual is aware of his or her "decision" to be gay and can simply "undecide". Or maybe you're saying that someone can be shocked into changing their sexual preference and they may not even realize it was an environmental thing? Either way, I think it'd be pretty hard to provide proof of either thing being a constant decider of homosexuality when there are so many people out there who can tell you a different story via experience.

And just for a side-quest, what do you think it would take for a person to "override" his own biological instincts and start being sexually attracted to the opposite gender?
sooooccccciiiiiieeeettttttyyyyy maaaaaaaannnnn

I still think nobody is born gay.
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:18 PM   #439 (permalink)
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Scientists only just proved that ADHD is the result of genetic mutation. It affects around 16% of school-aged children alone.
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:20 PM   #440 (permalink)
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You obviously have a very incorrect idea of what genetic mutation actually is.

We're not talking about Freaks here...
Maybe you don't there, chief. I just happened to catch a PBS show the other day that explained all humans have a mutation in our jaw muscle, which makes us human and not gorilla. (I could go into real depth, but I would rather not for your sake) So to be mutated you don't have to be a freak like you say.

But anyway I'll rephrase, sexually altered.....

do you think roughly 4 percent of our popualtion is REALLY sexually altered in the womb/DNA/post birth?

No ****ing way.
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